:whoops:I know what a full-floater is, I should have phrased my question differently. I'm wondering why he wants a full-floater, seeing as his '78 FJ40 is almost perfect and awesome in its stock-ness.
Can a semi floater be converted to a FF axle?
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:whoops:I know what a full-floater is, I should have phrased my question differently. I'm wondering why he wants a full-floater, seeing as his '78 FJ40 is almost perfect and awesome in its stock-ness.
Stock is different in the USA than elsewhere. Other countries got full floaters, diesels, locking diffs and granny gears. Toyota seemed to think Americans were too wimpy to need the good stuff. We got the second best of all their offerings
including model availability ( 70 series ). I'm lucky enough to have a 70 series as well as a 60 series. Every time I drive my 70 I wonder
why Toyota bothered with the 60
including model availability ( 70 series ). I'm lucky enough to have a 70 series as well as a 60 series. Every time I drive my 70 I wonder
why Toyota bothered with the 60
I know what a full-floater is, I should have phrased my question differently. I'm wondering why he wants a full-floater, seeing as his '78 FJ40 is almost perfect and awesome in its stock-ness.
reliable for what intended use ?
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Well you have a winning argument with me. It just seems that is what all 40s should have. I was thinking a FF would be a wee more awesome. I also have that income tax burning a hole in my pocket. I guess I can go with my first idea. A TV and a vacuum cleaner. LOL
I know what a full-floater is, I should have phrased my question differently. I'm wondering why he wants a full-floater, seeing as his '78 FJ40 is almost perfect and awesome in its stock-ness.
I'm just wondering, I just put a 70 series front axle on my 40 with disc brakes, I have a 70 series ff (can't remember now if its disc or drum) rear axle just sitting at the garage but didn't think to use it as the 40 series seems to work fine so maybe now I will just put the 70 in. But now to the question, why go to the expense of buying all the conversion parts when you can just do a axle swap? I guess here we got some stuff the US didn't but when I was there there seemed to be many options of axles you could just swap. You have the advantage of having many junk yards we don't have here.....all our cool stuff gets cut up and sent to China so if your not around at the time you miss out. If I remember correctly some of the 12 bolt GM and 9 inch fords are full float and have true lockers...just wondering as I have read this discussion many times and wondered....thanks Lee
lcwizard said:
It's hard to disagree with you.
I do also wonder why we didn't have the 70s...?
I can understand the logic of Overseas mangers (not only Toyota), but do not agree with it. Why we do not getting reliable and high quality solid axle vehicle like 105 series Land Cruiser, Prado (not a solid axle, but still very good and the most it cost 25% less then Lexus GX) etc; diesel engines like D-4D? Their logic as Americans don't bother on gas prices and live only big V8s. It may be true at some places, but there are many of us who still thinks and believe that gas should be cheaper and it's high now, diesel engines are good and reliable, solid front axles are in favor of durability. I asked numerous times Toyota when we'll get what other do, but was given a reply - North American market has very little potential in such vehicles, so it's not offset the cost of bringing them here and certifying.
Hey man, do what you want to do, it's your truck now. I agree that a FF would increase the cool factor, and have thought about it on my FJ40 too. But if it were me I would do a 70 series cable locked set of axles so I not only get the FF but the cable lockers as well. I wouldn't mess with the aftermarket kits.
Barry (rutbeer) and others have done 70 series FR/RR axle conversions under their FJ40s. Seems to work pretty well.
Apparently Tpyota has their head in the sand. Jeep's live axle TJ, and it's various variations, far outsells Toyota's three off-roaders. 2010 Wrangler sales were 27,500 units. Combined sales for the FJcruiser , Land Cruiser, and 4-runner were 20,035. Apparently buyers don't look to Toyota anymore when
searching for the ultimate off-road machine. They go to Toyota for 4x4's like the RAV-4 which posted sales of 55,000 by itself in the same year. I'm sure the 70 series could trounce the sales figures of the 200 series ( 616 in 2010 )....
in the first month.
searching for the ultimate off-road machine. They go to Toyota for 4x4's like the RAV-4 which posted sales of 55,000 by itself in the same year. I'm sure the 70 series could trounce the sales figures of the 200 series ( 616 in 2010 )....
in the first month.
It's hard to disagree with you.
I do also wonder why we didn't have the 70s...?
I can understand the logic of Overseas mangers (not only Toyota), but do not agree with it. Why we do not getting reliable and high quality solid axle vehicle like 105 series Land Cruiser, Prado (not a solid axle, but still very good and the most it cost 25% less then Lexus GX) etc; diesel engines like D-4D? Their logic as Americans don't bother on gas prices and live only big V8s. It may be true at some places, but there are many of us who still thinks and believe that gas should be cheaper and it's high now, diesel engines are good and reliable, solid front axles are in favor of durability. I asked numerous times Toyota when we'll get what other do, but was given a reply - North American market has very little potential in such vehicles, so it's not offset the cost of bringing them here and certifying.
Interesting thought.I'll have to look into that if I happen to end up with a drum brake front axle.
An early front drum axle used smaller bearings than the disk front, so that might not be so great. But you could probably get the parts free.
Lots of the 45 rear FF have been converted to disk brakes, you could use those parts. Good thing is they used the large bearing hubs like a disk front, the brake lining is larger and the cast drums have more mass to deal with heat. Down side is none of the parts are common to the other models in Canada/USA. You could use the normal cylinders and possibly the narrow shoes from the 40/55, which are available through average parts stores. They are a bit of a PITA to keep two adjusters per wheel adjusted.
Seems like a lot of work for questionable benefit since I assume you want this for your 60. IMO a JDM 70 FF with spacers (or obviously a 60 FF) would be better/easier for your goal. Runs pretty well all the same brake stuff you already have. Way less effort and almost all stock parts for not a big cost difference
.
The stock 70 series full floaters aren't widely availalbe in the US like they are in other countries. Spector Offroad imports the 40 and 60 series full floaters, but those are currently running $900 + shipping. Then you need to refresh the axle and replace parts.
There was a vendor (GS Cruiser, I think) that was importing 70 series FF axles with cable locking differentials but I can't find their web site or they are not listing the axles on the web site. IIRC, they were VERY expensive.
Using a domestic full floater axle such as a GM 14 bolt or a Dana 60 introduces some other issues, such as that they are centered differentials. So you will either need to change out the transfer case, or modify the domestic axle. This would be a significant upgrade, however, if you've already invested in gears and a locker for your 'Cruiser rear end, you would need to do that again with the domestic axle. It adds up QUICKLY.
The intended use of people living in Sth America, Africa, NZ, Australia...
I'm being trite, I have no opinion on this really.
I'm in NZ, my BJ is FF. If it wasn't I highly doubt I would go to the effort or cost of swapping from SF to FF. Seems one is stronger than the other but it doesn't sound like the SF is "weak", just maybe not as strong as was available in other markets.
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I was going with the thought that it is better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it.
landyNZ said:The intended use of people living in Sth America, Africa, NZ, Australia...
I'm being trite, I have no opinion on this really.
I'm in NZ, my BJ is FF. If it wasn't I highly doubt I would go to the effort or cost of swapping from SF to FF. Seems one is stronger than the other but it doesn't sound like the SF is "weak", just maybe not as strong as was available in other markets.
I had a SF rear break at the c clip groove and the whole shebang started to walk out of the axle. Fortunately, I was on loon lake dan road coming out of the rubicon, traveling at slow speed when it happened!
With a FF, this wouldn't have happened.
For this experience alone, this is a GREAT THREAD and why I'm considering a FF option!!
I've heard that the factory Toyota FF has a smaller cross-section than a SF axle, so the "strength" is roughly equivalent. Don't know for certain though. Also, with a factory Toyota FF you risk shearing the axle studs on the end of the axle shaft. So
I swapped in a FF rear axle 17 or so years ago... For what most 40s are used for, the SF rear axle is fine. The biggest disadvantage to SF, IMO, is that the bearings roll on the axle surface. I pulled my SF axle to investigate a leaking oil seal... The bearing surface was borderline on one of the axles, and shot on the other. Didn't have any spare axles lying around... And used axles would be prone to the same problem...
What to do?
Well I decided to call up a guy who I'd crossed paths with (was long before MUD). He'd now sold his 40... But he still had his 45 parts truck. Went over, had a look, made a deal. I couldn't pass on FF 45.... For $50.
He called me on the when I got home, and said... Tell you what, you can have what's left for $100... Well a $50 tow bill later, it was my rusted out, tranny & transfercaseless, parts truck.
And, I haven't ever looked back... Although, I think it's time to replace those bearings... Since they've likely been with that axle since 1977.
Times have changed since then... Now guys want $600 for a used FF axle, and SOR only wants $900... As compared to the $1000... Back when our dollar was only worth $.70 usd.
What to do?
Well I decided to call up a guy who I'd crossed paths with (was long before MUD). He'd now sold his 40... But he still had his 45 parts truck. Went over, had a look, made a deal. I couldn't pass on FF 45.... For $50.
He called me on the when I got home, and said... Tell you what, you can have what's left for $100... Well a $50 tow bill later, it was my rusted out, tranny & transfercaseless, parts truck.
And, I haven't ever looked back... Although, I think it's time to replace those bearings... Since they've likely been with that axle since 1977.
Times have changed since then... Now guys want $600 for a used FF axle, and SOR only wants $900... As compared to the $1000... Back when our dollar was only worth $.70 usd.
if you keep the wheel bearings adjusted you should never have a problem the the shear pins or studs...
Also, don't be tempted to just use RTV... Paper gaskets seem to have better results. I only started having problems with a 300 hp SBC and a FF rear axle after using RTV... And the biggest problems after switching to tie wired bolts.
The inner end of the FF axle is the same size... It's true, the outer is slightly smaller... But it caries NO vehicle weight.
I'd have to say the FF axle wins... although studds do need to have attention paid to them.
In addition to my FJ40 I've got two "Dentside" (1973-1979) Ford F-250 4x4 pickups that have Dana 60 full floating axles. I've never had any issues with those as far as broken studs or anything else.
I also have a 1980 Tucker 1644 Sno-Cat and they use Dana 60 full floating axles. For those that aren't familiar with Tuckers (it's a sickness) they have four tracks, two in the front and two in the back. Tucker uses "rear" Dana 60 axles (4.88:1 gears). The axles are mounted on what Tucker refers to as fifth wheel plates. When you turn left the whole front axle assembly turns left and the rear axle assembly turns right (it's called crab steering).
I'm pretty confident the stresses those are regularly subjected to are substantially greater than what the Ford's put up with.
I'm a big fan of FF axles!
I also have a 1980 Tucker 1644 Sno-Cat and they use Dana 60 full floating axles. For those that aren't familiar with Tuckers (it's a sickness) they have four tracks, two in the front and two in the back. Tucker uses "rear" Dana 60 axles (4.88:1 gears). The axles are mounted on what Tucker refers to as fifth wheel plates. When you turn left the whole front axle assembly turns left and the rear axle assembly turns right (it's called crab steering).
I'm pretty confident the stresses those are regularly subjected to are substantially greater than what the Ford's put up with.
I'm a big fan of FF axles!