Camshaft (1 Viewer)

[TrickyT]

Bump.

When we last left MiniPigg he was about to fire up his new engine.
And A Ron was looking around for a dyno so that we could learn how much HP he got with his rebuild.
How about some follow-up guys. Its been almost two months.

 

[Tinker]

In general, the greater the duration the better the top end. So for torque you want the low-duration cam.

 

[tonkota]

Bump.

When we last left MiniPigg he was about to fire up his new engine.
And A Ron was looking around for a dyno so that we could learn how much HP he got with his rebuild.
How about some follow-up guys. Its been almost two months.

No dyno yet, they cut my hours at work for a couple months. We have plenty of work but our clients are slow to pay us!!

I can tell you this:
Loaded with 4 people (560#), basket roofrack loaded with gear, tall box up front, 4 bikes on a trailer hitch rack, 22 gallons of water, 4 coolers with food and 400# of bricks (for my sister-in-law) and my rear springs were inverted I could still accelerate from 50-70 with out too much issue. I could pull grades that used to slow us down.

I only wish I had a 5 speed....

EDIT: mini is still fighting some gremlins.

 

[PabloCruise]

This is a great thread - thanks!!!

 

[Yspen]

Tonkota

You have the delta cam ( KC859) - I understand the duration is .262 but what is the lift ?

Where in the rpm range do your engine feel most comfortable ? How do you percieve your low down torque ?

 

[tonkota]

I'd have to call Delta Camshaft and ask about the lift, I don't remember.

I have an automatic transmission.

Torque from idle is great and very punchy. The Cruiser sort of squats down in the back right and lifts in the left front when I stab the gas down. It pulls hard in 2nd gear from 30mph.

It has great torque at 2200 RPM on the highway, much less down shifting to make hills. Passing, it shifts down and runs up to about 4500 RPM and then shifts up.

Keep in mind that I am running a 2F block under the 3F-EFI.

I couldn't be happier with the power it has now. It isn't a V8, but it has plenty of get-up-and-go for me and the brakes.

 

[jfnall]

early in the thread there was comment about the qualti of MAF reground lifters and how they caused some serious problems. I am at the same point with MAF lifters waiting to go in. This is the second time I have read about their lifters being a problem. I am beginning to wonder if I need to find a different source. Any advice for others on their experience with MAF lifters?

 

[fliphkd778]

The SealedPower/Federal Mogul number is 221-2202.

Haven't bought one for 6mos., so they might be NLA. Bummer.

ITM has a solid gear, but like all ITM stuff it is made in China/Taiwan/Malaysia.

I've been looking around for one of these, they are indeed nla. I guess it's just ITM from now on. I'm having a tough time finding a place to order one, anyone have a source?

 

[FJ40Jim]

Northern Auto Parts.<----link to part
Last one I bought was OEM quality, made in Japan.

 

[fliphkd778]

Hahah I was just about to post that up, I ordered my ITM gear from them and they said they also had a few 2202 in stock still.

 

[Yspen]

Does anybody have actual dyno figures ( and at what rpm ) - preferable a printout , of a 262 degree cam ? ( and a stock cam )
( naturally aspirated 2F )

 

[tonkota]

Not as far as I know. I have not made it to a dyno. I'm just happy driving it now

 

[Yspen]

Summery

Lets look at the different options out there :

2F stock
250 duration
Int 17-53
ex 55-15
lift ? 0.377

3F stock
250
INt 22-48
EX 60-10
lift ? 0.377

Isky Z99+E4 grind
258
INT 21-57
ex 57-21
lift 425

Isky z99-005 grind
260
Int 25-55
ex 55-25
lift 406

In another thread the following Delta grind gets mentioned: ( intake similar to 2F and ex similar to 3F , duration slightly longer )
Perf 250 S grind
Duration intake 250
Duration exhaust 254
Intakes opens 17, closes 58
Exhaust opens 60 closes 14
cam rise .255 L/C 108 degrees
Lash intake .014 exhaust .014

KC 859 - MarkW's choice
262
INt 24-59
ex 62-34
lift 440 (?)

I am trying to make sense of these figures . ( the following info taken from other threads )

Lower duration cams produce the power in the lower RPM range. Larger duration cams operate at higher RPM, but you will lose bottom end power to gain top end power as the duration is increased. (For each ten degree change in the duration at .050", the power band moves up or down in RPM range by approximately 500 RPM.)
Advancing the cam will shift the basic RPM range downward.

Too little compression ratio (or too much duration) will cause the cylinder pressure to drop. This will lower the power output of the engine.


So to apply to my situation :
I am raising compression and overbore ( 8.8-9 :1 ) = more power
If I fit the longer duration KC 262 cam , it may counter the higher compression but will also move the powerband up by 500rpm . The same KC grind is advanced in timing and will move the powerband down = back to where I started

The Isky 258 grind is similar in timing than the 3F but longer duration . So the engine will be very much the same but rev more comfortably at above 2000rpm (?)

Help me make sense of this

 

[lehiguy]

Lets look at the different options out there :

2F stock
250 duration
Int 17-53
ex 55-15
lift ?

3F stock : ( and Melling MC803 ) Jim40's choice
250
INt 22-48
EX 60-10
lift ?

Isky Z99+E3 grind
258
INT 21-57
ex 57-21
lift 425

Isky z99-005 grind
260
Int 25-55
ex 55-25
lift 406

In another thread the following Delta grind gets mentioned: ( this is so close to stock 2F - I do not see the sense )
Perf 250 S grind
Duration intake 250
Duration exhaust 254
Intakes opens 17, closes 58
Exhaust opens 60 closes 14
cam rise .255 L/C 108 degrees
Lash intake .014 exhaust .014

KC 859 - MarkW's choice
262
INt 24-59
ex 62-34
lift 440 (?)

I am trying to make sense of these figures . ( the following info taken from other threads )

Lower duration cams produce the power in the lower RPM range. Larger duration cams operate at higher RPM, but you will lose bottom end power to gain top end power as the duration is increased. (For each ten degree change in the duration at .050", the power band moves up or down in RPM range by approximately 500 RPM.)
Advancing the cam will shift the basic RPM range downward.

Too little compression ratio (or too much duration) will cause the cylinder pressure to drop. This will lower the power output of the engine.


So to apply to my situation :
I am raising compression and overbore ( 8.8-9 :1 ) = more power
If I fit the longer duration KC 262 cam , it may counter the higher compression but will also move the powerband up by 500rpm . The same KC grind is advanced in timing and will move the powerband down = back to where I started

The Isky 258 grind is similar in timing than the 3F but longer duration . So the engine will be very much the same but rev more comfortably at above 2000rpm (?)

Help me make sense of this

There is more to consider here than just lift and duration. The overall "timing" of the cam and it's LSA will be major contributors. I ran a Comp Cams piece in my 350 that was .460 lift and 258/262 duration and it made crazy low end because it was "ground advanced" by four degrees and had 111 LSA, not 115 or some crazy thing like is typical with FI cams. To answer your question, yes, the longer duaration should improve the top end. The LSAs of less than, say, 110 degrees (assuming the overall duration is 255 to 265) should have substantial scavenging effect at lower RPM, (torque) but it may cause your hydrocarbons to go up which might be a concern depending on where you live and how strict the laws are.

 

[Yspen]

Theoretically what should each cam give you : ? ? ?
2F = the same
3F( advanced 5 degrees) = increased lower rpm power - top end the same or less ??
Isky+E3 = Good top end and no real loss lower ?
Isky - 005 and KC858 = slight loss low end and huge top end gain ?



Best fuel consumption with ........ ?? 3F cam or Isky +E3 ??

( for me smog is not an issue )

 

[lehiguy]

Theoretically what should each cam give you : ? ? ?
2F = the same
3F( advanced 5 degrees) = increased lower rpm power - top end the same or less ??
Isky+E3 = Good top end and no real loss lower ?
Isky - 005 and KC858 = slight loss low end and huge top end gain ?



Best fuel consumption with ........ ?? 3F cam or Isky +E3 ??

( for me smog is not an issue )

The 3F cam also has more LSA to keep the FI happy which more or less negates the extra advance. I ran both, couldn't really say if I felt any difference at all, but with the 3F cam, a header, Weber 38/38, .070" shaved from the head and a distributor recurve, it did run plenty strong for a 2F.

 

[FJ40Jim]

The 3F cam also has more LSA to keep the FI happy which more or less negates the extra advance. I ran both, couldn't really say if I felt any difference at all, but with the 3F cam, a header, Weber 38/38, .070" shaved from the head and a distributor recurve, it did run plenty strong for a 2F.

The LSA is the same between 1/2F and the 3F cam. Only difference is the key in the snout is clocked 5 degrees.

I agree it doesn't make much difference, and apparently the manufacturers agree since all they sell now are the 3F cams.

 

[Yspen]

Just for academical sake I want to update info on Delta grinds ( got the info from them ):

The KC859 262* grind lift is 217 duration @ 0.050" cam rise 0.284

Delta also offer a low end torque grind KC859 250s : 215duration @.050
and 0.255 cam rise .
( the latter grind appears to be almost what Downey offered as their "torquer" cam that was 214@.050 )

The specs that are published for the CS803 billet are: ( as per FJ40Jim -somewhere else in the matrix )
duration @.050;
Intake 189deg.
Exh 193deg.
Lobe center 116.5

 

[PabloCruise]

Just for academical sake I want to update info on Delta grinds ( got the info from them ):

The KC859 262* grind lift is 217 duration @ 0.050" cam rise 0.284

Delta also offer a low end torque grind KC859 250s : 215duration @.050
and 0.255 cam rise .
( the latter grind appears to be almost what Downey offered as their "torquer" cam that was 214@.050 )


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]we offer a lower torque grind also 859-250s 215 @ .050 .255 cam rise[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15 @ .[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]we offer a lower torque grind also 85D[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

The specs that are published for the CS803 billet are:
duration @.050;
Intake 189deg.
Exh 193deg.
Lobe center 116.5

Thanks!

 

[lehiguy]

Let me restate what I have said before about lifters. The MAF lifters are absolute garbage; they are undersized and they are soft and will mushroom. Granted, it has been ten years, but it still makes me mad when I consider all the money and time wasted. Perhaps they have changed, but perhaps they haven't and I consider it too great a risk. The stockers are the best and can be reground with a .5 degree crown to promote better rotation. They are the right size and are infinitley harder material than the MAF junk. I would hate to see somebody get bit by the same dog that bit me. That was the end of my patronage of MAF.