Bolt on turbo kit (18 Viewers)

[scottryana]

This kit is going to be in the ballpark of the TRD SC maybe just a tad more. You can not change the reality of stock computer no matter what kind of FI system you add.

While this kit has the potential to do much much more, the amount of people that would actually step up to the plate and pay for that next level are quite small. For example, we could do this bolt on kit and get say 75-100 more horsepower without touching anything else and it might cost $5k but to get to the next level, you need new injectors, new fuel pump, stand alone computer, tapping into the wiring harness (a plug and play harness could be built) doing a shift kit to the transmission, etc and now you are talking about probably another $5k maybe more depending on if you do the work yourself or take it to a shop.

SO now you have a $9k turbo setup that can triple your horsepower. (Which I challenge you to find anywhere for a big 6 cylinder) but that is approaching what people paid for their entire trucks!

So power figures for this kit with the IC, I would like to say will be over 300hp. The parts will all be capable of 600+hp but that is not what the kit is for at this time. If I actually had enough people that bought and installed it and loved it and committed to the next step we could talk about putting something together at that time, but I think this just needs to fill the hole that exists now.

Forgive me if I missed it but what kind of numbers are we talking here with this kit? I saw someone mention 300-400hp. IIRC Ryan your Lx turbo got up to 600+hp(read alot of your build thread but not all of it)

Also what would this do for MPG?

 

[subzali]

Just for reference, the Slee Avo turbo setup for the 2UZ-FE is $7400, not including exhaust work. I think he used to have an 80 series Avo turbo option, but I don't see it any more. Must not have gotten enough people to $$ up.

 

[Anvil]

scottryana... I truly hope you are successful in this endeavor. I'd happily pay $4k... if for no other reason, than to hear the turbo spool up in my 80 while climbing a mountain pass! That would be some sweet music! Not to mention the extra hp...

Thank you for all you do for MUD!

 

[Enders]

Hell, to be in the 6-7k range with a wolf ECU in the OBD1 rigs would substantially increase your market. Most OBD1 see a swap as their only option to more power

 

[scottryana]

I would really like to help the OBDI guys, but I really just don't have any experience at all with the issues that they face. I do know they don't have the same open/closed loop to exploit like we can do on the OBDII trucks. I am sure you could use just about any standalone system and get the OBDI trucks to work, but again that kind of falls in that second category where we are talking about quite a bit bigger investment. Not only from the buyers perspective but also from the shop's perspective. They would need to find an OBDI truck, create a plug and play wiring harness, buy the standalone computer, rent a dyno, pay a tuner to develop a base map. I am not saying that it isn't doable but the low hanging fruit is just to see if anyone will even buy a bolt-in kit at the lowest price reasonable before asking anyone to spend all that development money.

Hell, to be in the 6-7k range with a wolf ECU in the OBD1 rigs would substantially increase your market. Most OBD1 see a swap as their only option to more power

 

[dogfishlake]

I am trying to understand the concept of a true twin scroll manifold. The j-pipe set up will support a twin scroll flange but is that the ideal pairing of each of the 3-cylinder groups (1,2,3 and 4,5,6)? I imagine it is still better anyway. The 6 boost maniflold really only looks like a bundle fed to a twin scroll flange too, and I see nothing in their literature that specifically claims it is truly a twin scroll design for the 1fz-fe application. It would seem the j-pipe may lose little to none in performance to the 6 boost if I am getting this understood correctly.
I can (and will) go back to your new LX build thread to check, but your new manifold for that application is twin scroll, isn't it?

 

[scottryana]

The idea of a true twin scroll manifold is best in ideal conditions for an inline 6. The reason the I6 is so perfect for twin scroll is that the firing order 1-4-2-5-3-6 means if you pair 1-2-3, 4-5-6, you don't have competing exhaust pulses hitting the entry to the turbo at the same time. Think of it similarly to any kind of wave, if two waves hit each other in phase they increase the amplitude if they hit each other out of phase they cancel each other out.

So in a true twin scroll setup you would have equal length runners from each exhaust port and they would alternate firing down each of the scrolls and you would never have competing exhaust pulses. Because of this a twin scroll when done right provides the quickest spool up of the traditional turbo configurations followed by a quick spool valve and then a single scroll.

But there are soooo many other variables that are going to be more important in turbo selection, this is only part of it. I was very insistent that this setup was going to be twin scroll because I was going to try and fit the price point with a Borg Warner turbo that uses older technology, a cast compressor and turbine wheel and journal bearings. BUT there appears to be a much nicer BW that is going to slot into this project that has the CNC compressor wheel from the $2500 EFR turbo and in an effort to make it not boost too quickly a single scroll T4 will be used. We can't spool the turbo too early on the stock computer because of the open/closed loop situation we are trying to exploit to get the extra rich fueling when the turbo kicks in. We might give up a little spool but I think because of the quality of the turbo it won't be much.

In an ideal world with an unlimited budget I would go true twin scroll, and the computer to run it so there were no worries, but even on my big turbo build on my black truck, I had to make concessions and do a single scroll, because it was more important to me to use a Tial exhaust housing with a V-band flange than it was to do twin scroll.

My grey truck is a true twin scroll.

I am trying to understand the concept of a true twin scroll manifold. The j-pipe set up will support a twin scroll flange but is that the ideal pairing of each of the 3-cylinder groups (1,2,3 and 4,5,6)? I imagine it is still better anyway. The 6 boost maniflold really only looks like a bundle fed to a twin scroll flange too, and I see nothing in their literature that specifically claims it is truly a twin scroll design for the 1fz-fe application. It would seem the j-pipe may lose little to none in performance to the 6 boost if I am getting this understood correctly.
I can (and will) go back to your new LX build thread to check, but your new manifold for that application is twin scroll, isn't it?

 

[dogfishlake]

The idea of a true twin scroll manifold is best in ideal conditions for an inline 6. The reason the I6 is so perfect for twin scroll is that the firing order 1-4-2-5-3-6 means if you pair 1-2-3, 4-5-6, you don't have competing exhaust pulses hitting the entry to the turbo at the same time. Think of it similarly to any kind of wave, if two waves hit each other in phase they increase the amplitude if they hit each other out of phase they cancel each other out.

So in a true twin scroll setup you would have equal length runners from each exhaust port and they would alternate firing down each of the scrolls and you would never have competing exhaust pulses. Because of this a twin scroll when done right provides the quickest spool up of the traditional turbo configurations followed by a quick spool valve and then a single scroll.

But there are soooo many other variables that are going to be more important in turbo selection, this is only part of it. I was very insistent that this setup was going to be twin scroll because I was going to try and fit the price point with a Borg Warner turbo that uses older technology, a cast compressor and turbine wheel and journal bearings. BUT there appears to be a much nicer BW that is going to slot into this project that has the CNC compressor wheel from the $2500 EFR turbo and in an effort to make it not boost too quickly a single scroll T4 will be used. We can't spool the turbo too early on the stock computer because of the open/closed loop situation we are trying to exploit to get the extra rich fueling when the turbo kicks in. We might give up a little spool but I think because of the quality of the turbo it won't be much.

In an ideal world with an unlimited budget I would go true twin scroll, and the computer to run it so there were no worries, but even on my big turbo build on my black truck, I had to make concessions and do a single scroll, because it was more important to me to use a Tial exhaust housing with a V-band flange than it was to do twin scroll.

My grey truck is a true twin scroll.

Intetesting. Thanks for the clarity. Is there a lack of quality turbos out there that combine the twin scroll inlet and the V-band outlet?

 

[scottryana]

Well there were a lack of options.... Garrett has since come out with their GENII turbos that do away with the old cast iron housings and now use an investment cast stainless steel, but even just 6 months ago the large turbos had industrial housings. Even now the vast majority of the lower price point turbos do not have the high quality housings. That is partially why I am really liking these new Borg Warners!

Compare that BW turbo I posted to the previous Garretts in the same price range.

Intetesting. Thanks for the clarity. Is there a lack of quality turbos out there that combine the twin scroll inlet and the V-band outlet?

 

[mehbohdi]

I'm all for bolt on, Toyota power. I'd love a LS swap, but the reality is I neither have the time or funds to do it. I could bolt on a turbo in a weekend and be driving it. While others are waiting..... Thanks for your time scottryana keep up the good work I'm interested in the outcome, and lets stay on topic!

 

[Heckraiser]

I have no idea why the BW turbos (non EFR) are so damn affordable compared to garrett, but as Ryan alluded to, a similar garrett might be double the cost. And considering everything you get out of an EFR turbo, they actually are pretty good value at ~$2200. Great for a supra or something that can be tuned, anyway The problem with the cruiser is that you can't fully take advantage of all the bad-ass turbo technology of the last ~10 years without stand alone engine management

 

[dogfishlake]

I have no idea why the BW turbos (non EFR) are so damn affordable compared to garrett, but as Ryan alluded to, a similar garrett might be double the cost. And considering everything you get out of an EFR turbo, they actually are pretty good value at ~$2200. Great for a supra or something that can be tuned, anyway The problem with the cruiser is that you can't fully take advantage of all the bad-ass turbo technology of the last ~10 years without stand alone engine management

The turbo sizing in this kit would allow more boost of someone wanted to go there though right? I know it isn't cheap to bump up boost but compared to an m90 supercharger, there is no comparison. I am very convinced this is where the 1fz-fe needs to go. (This base kit, I mean).

 

[awesome]

Scott , I have been reading your thread. I am working on a solution for the engine / transmission management for my 1994 80 series Sahara that i'm doing a twin scroll turbo on. I am in Australia and have run a dyno tune for the last 28 years. I specialise in GM DELCO / DELPHI engine / powertrain management systems. Over here it's the Holden brand computers that I mainly work with , but I also tune GM and Buick ECU's and PCM's.
I have the factory wiring diagrams and I think I can come up with a relatively cheap standalone engine trans PCM . We are currently writing code to run the A442 trans with the cable line pressure control which mine has , but the PCM we are using has the ability to run pulse width modulated line pressure control as well as PWM torque converter clutch control in standard format. Engine side of the computer runs full sequential injectors with waste spark ignition. I am however running coil on plug as you are , so we have sourced a custom ignition module designed and built in Australia from a fellow computer / engine geek which is fully compatible with the Delphi PCM I am using that can run up to eight ignition coils and virtually any crank / cam sensor configuration.
The PCM comes from a mass produced Holden brand vehicle called a VT Commodore , so is plentiful and cheap. We already had busted 100% of the factory code for this box back in 1998 and have subsequently written custom code to expand upon it's capabilities up to 4.5 bar turbo / supercharger use , so it's a truely tried and tested OBD2 platform.
I was going to do a custom translation wiring loom for plug and play on the Land Cruiser , but I think it's going to take a while to source mating connectors to be able to do the job , not to mention the cost. Do you think people would baulk at doing their own wiring? Most of the wiring required is already there , but some changes to the standard wiring are required to make this work.For example the Toyota auto's solenoids are grounded with the standard trans control supplying 12 volts to switch them on , whereas the Holden GMH PCM switches solenoids to ground.
This would require re wiring the trans to supply fused 12 volts to the solenoids , I haven't had an opportunity to drop the trans to inspect the loom to see if this needs to be done internally or wether it can be done externally. Guess what i'm getting at is I could supply a real time programmable PCM capable of running the whole shebang cheaply if wiring doesn't scare people.
Sorry for the rant and don't want intrude upon what you are doing here Scott , just looking for some opinions and feedback.
Cheers , Leon.
Feel free to fire away with any engine management questions , it's what I do.

 

[Dragos80]

Maybe Leon should also take a look at the "5 speed auto" thread we got going.

 

[Heckraiser]

The turbo sizing in this kit would allow more boost of someone wanted to go there though right? I know it isn't cheap to bump up boost but compared to an m90 supercharger, there is no comparison. I am very convinced this is where the 1fz-fe needs to go. (This base kit, I mean).

A S300SX Borg Warner is barely trotting at 6psi. The turbo itself would be fine going full tilt at 26psi or so. So if you wanted to go stand-alone and build up the block and fueling system, this turbo wouldn't be the limiting factor until you got pretty "up there."

 

[dogfishlake]

A S300SX Borg Warner is barely trotting at 6psi. The turbo itself would be fine going full tilt at 26psi or so. So if you wanted to go stand-alone and build up the block and fueling system, this turbo wouldn't be the limiting factor until you got pretty "up there."

Perfect. For me at least. Thanks

 

[dogfishlake]

Scott , I have been reading your thread. I am working on a solution for the engine / transmission management for my 1994 80 series Sahara that i'm doing a twin scroll turbo on. I am in Australia and have run a dyno tune for the last 28 years. I specialise in GM DELCO / DELPHI engine / powertrain management systems. Over here it's the Holden brand computers that I mainly work with , but I also tune GM and Buick ECU's and PCM's.
I have the factory wiring diagrams and I think I can come up with a relatively cheap standalone engine trans PCM . We are currently writing code to run the A442 trans with the cable line pressure control which mine has , but the PCM we are using has the ability to run pulse width modulated line pressure control as well as PWM torque converter clutch control in standard format. Engine side of the computer runs full sequential injectors with waste spark ignition. I am however running coil on plug as you are , so we have sourced a custom ignition module designed and built in Australia from a fellow computer / engine geek which is fully compatible with the Delphi PCM I am using that can run up to eight ignition coils and virtually any crank / cam sensor configuration.
The PCM comes from a mass produced Holden brand vehicle called a VT Commodore , so is plentiful and cheap. We already had busted 100% of the factory code for this box back in 1998 and have subsequently written custom code to expand upon it's capabilities up to 4.5 bar turbo / supercharger use , so it's a truely tried and tested OBD2 platform.
I was going to do a custom translation wiring loom for plug and play on the Land Cruiser , but I think it's going to take a while to source mating connectors to be able to do the job , not to mention the cost. Do you think people would baulk at doing their own wiring? Most of the wiring required is already there , but some changes to the standard wiring are required to make this work.For example the Toyota auto's solenoids are grounded with the standard trans control supplying 12 volts to switch them on , whereas the Holden GMH PCM switches solenoids to ground.
This would require re wiring the trans to supply fused 12 volts to the solenoids , I haven't had an opportunity to drop the trans to inspect the loom to see if this needs to be done internally or wether it can be done externally. Guess what i'm getting at is I could supply a real time programmable PCM capable of running the whole shebang cheaply if wiring doesn't scare people.
Sorry for the rant and don't want intrude upon what you are doing here Scott , just looking for some opinions and feedback.
Cheers , Leon.
Feel free to fire away with any engine management questions , it's what I do.

That's awesome. Glad you are around.

 

[scottryana]

Thanks to @Heckraiser for coming in and answering a lot of these questions. As some know he was the first one to take my turbo parts list and run with it. There were some issues with the Treadstone manifold and a few other issues with exhaust leaks but he should be a good resource for how a turbo cruiser works.

The kit I am proposing is obviously a step up from the parts list I created, as the J-pipe would be better than the Treadstone manifold and this new BW turbo is considerably better than the old one. Couple that with a good quality working intercooler and prefab lines and tubing, and it should offer great performance for a long time.

 

[TUNEUP]

Is there anywhere out there to get a 1fz exhaust manifold flange as a blank to build our own manifold?

 

[scottryana]

None that I know of.

Is there anywhere out there to get a 1fz exhaust manifold flange as a blank to build our own manifold?