BJ40 Starter problems (2 Viewers)

[lostmarbles]

Hi Albert.

Here's my OEM strap between my motor and frame:



And here is an extra strap that I ran from where my OEM battery-earth-strap attaches to my guard. (The other end connects to a bolt on my timing cover.) .... And adding this extra earthing-lead DEFINITELY increased my cranking RPM to make starting easier.

 

[beejay42]

As usual, Tom comes to the rescue with some great images
That is exactly where my engine to chassis earth is too. Though it was all gunked up, the connection between the engine and start of the strap, and the end of the strap and the chassis, via the multimeter were fine- it was in the middle of the strap were there was problems- even though after cutting it apart I could not even see any damage to the copper strands?
I could not find a strap of the same dimensions that day so I have a slightly longer one now that just loops a little bit.
Cleaned all the surfaces and bolts back to clean metal and bolted it up- sweet!

 

[albert rodrigues]

Thanks again guys. I checked this morning and I do have that ground strap in the same location near the filter. It does not look in great shape and I will take some time this weekend to clean and replace if necessary. I had a questions regarding the strap, is it best to use a woven strap or can I use a stranded copper wire similar to the battery cables?

BTW Tom your BJ is amazing as always. I can't ever imagine how to get to where you are with your but it is definitely something to aspire to.

 

[Ron R]

Albert,
when you are going to use jumpercables to check, use one to connect the minus post of the battery to the metal of the engine directly f.i. to a big bolt on the engine.
For the second jumper: connect one side to the plus post of the battery and the other end to the big post on the starter relay of the startermotor.
This way any bad connection between battery and engine/startermotor will no longer play a role in getting power to the startermotor and it should turn at a good RPM.
There is no need to disconnect the original connections. The jumpers will be in parallel to them.
If the starter now still doesn't turn poperly, you may have to recheck the startermotor.

 

[lostmarbles]

.... is it best to use a woven strap or can I use a stranded copper wire similar to the battery cables?.......

In my opinion, you can choose to go either way. It doesn't matter. (Suit your personal preference.)

 

[albert rodrigues]

some progress

OK, with the use of a jumper cable I was able to get the engine to turn over much quicker. Seems like I do not have a seized engine like I was worried about. After several attempts without my tools in hand I think that my problem is back to the glow plugs. I was able to check that I have about 10V to the plugs when engaging the glow plugs, turning the key backwards. After several long glow cycles, the engine turned over medium-well but did not sound like it wanted to start. The battery lost voltage but not as quickly as before the jumper cables were temporarily installed. Ill pull the plugs later in the week to check them per the FSM. They are only about 1 year old but are not an exact match to what was previously in the vehicle, From memory they are a bit shorter and do not fit the block the same way. I think they are made by Champion. I'm pretty sure that I can get things sorted, just have to be patient and have all my tools at hand. Thanks for the great round of suggestions!!!

 

[albert rodrigues]

HKT Glow PLugs

Anyone know a vendor, preferably in the US that carries HKT - PT104 plugs?

 

[albert rodrigues]

Ideas.....please

OK, put the new plugs in today after staring at them for a week wondering if anything positive would happen once installed. See pictures. The old (wrong fit) plugs looked fairly new when removed but I wanted to eliminate a glow problem as a possible cause for the starting troubles. With a full battery charge, battery charger on 'start' and jumper cables attached I gave it a try. It cranked fairly well at first but as a carefully tried several times with some rest in between it cranked better and better. No changes in the wiring were made during the first few attempts to start. After about the 5th try, I let it crank for a while and the engine turned very quickly and noticeably different than before. I let it rest and tried a last time keeping the starter engaged much longer and she started. Ran like a champ for a few minutes, did not smoke much at all and I thought that was very weird. I got out of the vehicle and thought i should disconnect the jumper cables and battery charger just in case something would shift while running and a cable would come loose. About a few seconds after disconnecting the cables and starter, it shut down very quickly similar to what it did to me when this all started. Felt as if you were running full speed and ran straight into a wall.

I connected all the wires again as they were and the only thing that happened was the click of the starter motor and nothing more. The positive feed from the battery to the starter was very hot again. The one ground from the battery to the top of the engine near the fuel filter was warm.

I tried to eliminate the positive wire from the battery to the starter as a possible cause by just using the jumper cable from the battery to the starter. Same problem and the jumper cable also got hot. Starter was warm as in the beginning of this post. Got a lot of different clicking sounds on a few tries and as I am home alone the kids were not around to help me so I could listen to where they were coming from. One set of clicking sounds almost sounded like a broken rod I once had in an old 2.8l jeep cherokee, but I really could not say.

I gave up and disconnected all the positive wires to the battery and am leaving it to charge. Last reading was 12.66V with the charger on trickle.

Could this just be an electrical gremlin? Could the engine be shutting down in a position where it cannot turn over again because something is broken. What more should a wanna-be mechanic with limited skills do?

 

[lostmarbles]

...... It cranked fairly well at first .......... with some rest in between it cranked better and better. ......... about the 5th try, I let it crank for a while and the engine turned very quickly and noticeably different than before. I let it rest and tried a last time keeping the starter engaged much longer and she started. ..................Ran like a champ for a few minutes..........I got out of the vehicle and thought i should disconnect the jumper cables and battery charger ..... About a few seconds after disconnecting the cables and starter, it shut down very quickly similar to what it did to me when this all started. Felt as if you were running full speed and ran straight into a wall.

I connected all the wires again as they were and the only thing that happened was the click of the starter motor and nothing more. .................Got a lot of different clicking sounds on a few tries and I am home alone the kids were not around to help me so I could listen to where they were coming from. One set of clicking sounds almost sounded like a broken rod I once had in an old 2.8l jeep cherokee, but I really could not say.

I gave up and disconnected all the positive wires to the battery and am leaving it to charge. Last reading was 12.66V with the charger on trickle......

My first thoughts were to combine this quote: "with some rest in between it cranked better and better" (engine freeing itself up?) with this quote: "Felt as if you were running full speed and ran straight into a wall" (engine seizing up again?) along with your earlier observation that you couldn't turn your engine over by hand using a 24mm socket on the crankshaft nut.

So was your oil pressure OK while your engine was running and can you turn the crankshaft at all now Albert?

You MUST surely be able to turn it by hand or else come to the conclusion that your engine is seizing/damaged!

Assuming your gearbox is in neutral - the only other possibility for not being able to turn your engine that I can think of is if your startermotor is stuck "fully-engaged" with your "flywheel ring gear" -which would be easy enough to eliminate/confirm.

It is also possible that disconnecting your "external charger/starter contraption" caused your engine to shut down by making the EDIC move the injector pump arm to the "stop" position. (Perhaps this could happen if your battery is in a very pitiful shape.)



PS. I like the use of the nuts either side of your glowplug busbar to increase the electrical contact there.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Hi Tom thanks for the reply.

I have not followed up today. I did not look at any of the gauges when it was running as I was over-joyed for as long as it lasted. The expression on my face when she ****ed out must have been priceless . I would agree, I think things freed up as I cranked several times. The vehicle has been in my garage for over a year without starting and with only a few attempts to crank her.

My BJ does not have an EDIC motor, just an altitude compensator as far as I know.

The battery is brand new, optima yellow top. I have been checking the status of the battery prior to every attempt and the voltage seems fine.

Thinking about how it shut off, maybe I am jumping to conclusions again. It shut off very quickly without hesitation. Thinking about it today, it may not be that different than when she was running and used the normal shut-off procedure, I'm being optimistic at this point because I did not get many chances to drive the vehicle and really listen to all the details when she was running.

Also, maybe when I disconnected the wires and she shut off was merely a coincidence with regard to timing. I would think however, that it should have re-started easily. The battery could have been shot at that point since I really cranked it the last time to get it started. Maybe that is why I heard the starter clicking again, because of lack of battery power...

My best bet at this point is to get a little help in the garage and have someone crank while I stay under the hood and take some reading with my meter. I cannot wait to put this post to bed as I am sure many others here on mud. Thanks again for the insight and I followed your lead on the bus bar and glow plugs. Those plugs did come with an 8mm nut which was much wider than the wrong fit plugs I had in there.

 

[albert rodrigues]

There is no way for me to turn the engine by hand. I am using a breaker bar with a 24mm socket and nothing, barely budge. It really seems impossible with me under the font end and using my legs up against the wheels, nothing.

I checked the battery and with some help was able to crank the engine over well again for a few attempts. It almost started but I did not want to stress the starter or battery. I am letting it charge again and will try in an hour. With help I was also able to check to see if the voltage drops when engaging the glow cycle. It drops about 10V, measured at the battery and each glow plug. Is there anything else I should check with the meter while I have an extra hand. I am using the jumper cables again.

BTW, I forgot to mention that I have no air in the fuel lines since I replaced a few hard and soft lines a year ago. The plunger even maintained pressure after about 1year without starting. I did bleed the line at the IP and fuel filter only, yesterday as well. I did not do anything at the injectors.

 

[albert rodrigues]

YouTube Video Post

And here is the video of me in my garage. I just noticed that with the lower quality of the video you really do not hear the squeek. It is real obvious.

YouTube - Movie

 

[lostmarbles]

Hi Tom thanks for the reply..

No problems Albert. I wish more people would contribute here because we don't seem to be making headway without further help.

...My BJ does not have an EDIC motor, just an altitude compensator as far as I know. ....

Can u take a photo of your injector pump (including the area rearwards of it) so we can see what exactly you have got?

There is no way for me to turn the engine by hand. I am using a breaker bar with a 24mm socket and nothing, barely budge. It really seems impossible with me under the font end and using my legs up against the wheels, nothing.

What do others think? This engine sounds way too "tight" to me.

I know a B-diesel has a high compression ratio (21:1) but when turning it over slowly by hand, normal leakage past the compression rings should still make it turn over relatively easily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In fact, I can turn mine over with a light-duty 1/2" square-drive ratchet.

...BTW, I forgot to mention that I have no air in the fuel lines since I replaced a few hard and soft lines a year ago. The plunger even maintained pressure after about 1year without starting. I did bleed the line at the IP and fuel filter only, yesterday as well. I did not do anything at the injectors.

Well one more thing you could do then ............... is have someone crank your engine while you "crack" the nuts on top of each injector in turn (retightening each one as soon as you see fuel coming out). This should ensure that you DEFINITELY will be getting diesel fuel spraying into all cylinders when you next crank it.

And here is the video of me in my garage. I just noticed that with the lower quality of the video you really do not hear the squeek. It is real obvious....

Well your engine sure whizzzes over fast at the start Albert. - In fact it spun so fast that I don't think it would go any faster with the glowplugs removed! (At that time your engine certainly didn't appear "tight".)

One good thing - This video suggests there's no longer anything wrong with your starter.



PS. So to summarise my feelings - I think you should always be able to turn your engine over slowly by hand and I am dumbfounded as to why you have found you can't.

Perhaps there is something going on here that makes your engine "tightening up" at certain times?

And - ignoring the "tight engine problem that may or may-not exist" - try bleeding at the injectors (as described) before any future starting attempts.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Something I am concerned with was the squeak. It almost sounded as if something was slipping, very high pitched and sounded like it was coming from the engine. I’ve been reading the posts on BEBs and I can imagine that the noise could be a BEB spinning 180 degrees or more and then getting stuck. I know nothing about BEBs and kind of figure it could not be that because from what I read they are made of lead or similar soft metals and the squeak seems much too high pitched. The other notable thing to me was that the engine spun well and then on I think the 3rd time, it was notably slower as if something internal got stuck and was binding, preventing it from spinning quickly like the other attempts. You can see that in the video. The start attempts were all consecutive and only a few minutes in between the 1st and second video I edited together.
Do you think I should keep trying to start after I bleed at the injectors or is it a good idea to drop the oil pan? I picked up a gasket a while ago that I hope fits. I know I have a few pan screws that do not tighten and am worried to open another can of worms and head off in the wrong direction. Maybe do an oil change and open up my filter as you have recommended to others?
I think I need to find a local TLC chapter and see if I can get an experienced owner to come and take a look.

Regarding the IP. I had posted pictures of the make-shift spring put onto the back side of the pump in a separate post. Was hoping to correct that fix that must have been made in El Salvador (where the vehicle came from)

PS I have uploaded a higher res version of the video to a personal FTP site. If you or anyone else is interested in hearing the sqeak send an email to albert [at] albertrodrigues.com and I will send a link to the file.

 

[lostmarbles]

Something I am concerned with was the squeak. It almost sounded as if something was slipping, very high pitched and sounded like it was coming from the engine. I’ve been reading the posts on BEBs and I can imagine that the noise could be a BEB spinning 180 degrees or more and then getting stuck. I know nothing about BEBs and kind of figure it could not be that because from what I read they are made of lead or similar soft metals and the squeak seems much too high pitched. The other notable thing to me was that the engine spun well and then on I think the 3rd time, it was notably slower as if something internal got stuck and was binding, preventing it from spinning quickly like the other attempts....

Well I didn't notice the squeak in your video Albert.

And like you, I can't imagine hearing such a noise coming from big-end bearings (deep inside your engine).

I thought big-end bearings normally make a "muffled knocking sound"..

...Do you think I should keep trying to start after I bleed at the injectors or is it a good idea to drop the oil pan? I picked up a gasket a while ago that I hope fits. I know I have a few pan screws that do not tighten and am worried to open another can of worms and head off in the wrong direction. Maybe do an oil change and open up my filter as you have recommended to others? ...

Good question. If I knew more about your engine's history it might be easier for me to answer that.

... But ignoring this aspect ....If you were to attempt to start it again, then "bleeding at the injectors themselves while cranking" is part of the correct pre-start procedure according to the FSM (if the injection system has been opened up so that air has contaminated that area).

....I think I need to find a local TLC chapter and see if I can get an experienced owner to come and take a look.....

Now that's a GOOD idea


And your photos provide me with another possibility/idea for your engine not firing up. .........Could it be that the arm on your injector pump is in the wrong position while you're cranking?

I say this because that "cable-operated set-up" looks rather inprecise! (Do you know where the "starting/overinject", "run" and "stop" positions for that arm are? And if so, how does that cable set-up accurately locate the lever in each of them?

.. I have uploaded a higher res version of the video to a personal FTP site. If you or anyone else is interested in hearing the sqeak send an email to albert [at] albertrodrigues.com and I will send a link to the file.

Email sent.



PS:
I guess my best suggestion at this time is :

• Yes. Please do get someone else to look at your engine and confirm whether or not it is tight/seizing (by trying to turn it with a socket on the crank nut).
• Then, if they think it's OK for another start attempt, try to start it again after "making sure the injector pump is in overinject/start mode" and after "bleeding from all 4 injector nuts while cranking".
• Then if it does actually start (please God!) - or even if it spins over fast - immediately check for oil pressure.
• And report back

 

[rockcrawler]

Just wanted to add something about finding a bad earth with a meter, this isn't always that easy or even doable. With high amperage cables it's best to do a visual inspection by taking the connections apart or by bypassing it with a jumper lead to earth. All it takes to get a "good" reading with a meter is a tiny area of good contact. So while 99% of the contact area may be corroded, that 1% (or less) will fool your reading. A strand of copper wire thinner than a hair will make a meter read dead short, but it isn't going to carry a whole lot of current. Something to keep in mind.

 

[beejay42]

nothing helpful I can add, just a bump, and letting you know that I am still reading and following the thread, and am feeling your pain.
In my very limited knowledge and experience, it seems something weird is happening here.
Like Tom says, I hope some more people contribute here- it is a bit of a mystery, and most people seem to like a mystery.

and a bit of commentary,

hell yes, like Tom says, that was turning over FAST! Way faster than mine ever would. Hard to believe it would not start at that speed.
Your glow plugs are working?
Fuel???

Not having an EDIC, what do you have to set the start/run/stop position for the fuel? I realy can't figure out too much from your photos.
I don't have an EDIC and just have a simple choke cable set up thing ('manual edic')- as far as I can tell, I only have two positions (and the variety of positions inbetween), run and stop. I don't think mine has the overinject position for starting, though I have no problems starting.

The squeak (which I could hear) and the turning over fast and then a lot slower... weird stuff. Something going on there.

More expertise and comments needed.
Good luck.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Mine is a similar setup except it looks like the armature has two sides a push and pull. On the far side it is connected to the cable that turns the engine off. On the near side, a spring that maintains some tension. Also, the choke cable with the knob located under the steering wheel is broken off. Does it tie in here or the butteryfly valve? Should I be using choke when starting her up? I have not messed with it and did not figure it could be causing the problem with starting. When I push or pull the armature it does not seem to have a set poistion, just remains where it is due to the spring tenshion. How do I know if it is in the wrong position or if could be causing a problem? What is the best position for startup?

 

[lostmarbles]

Thanks for the extra input guys. Keep it coming

I downloaded the high resolution video version and my opinion of the squeal is that it is "normal" starter motor sound.

That "choke" (as you call it Albert) is normally simply connected to your accelerator pedal and is really a "hand throttle". So pulling it out has exactly the same effect as putting your foot on the accelerator. Here are pictures of mine:







The accelerator pedal in turn operates the butterfly valve on the intake manifold. (Foot off = almost-closed butterfly ........Foot hard down = butterfly wide-open)

The internal springs inside your injector pump should indeed keep the "rack" in the "run" position (where it is further controlled by vacuum acting on the leather diaphragm) and from what most people say, your engine should still start easily in this position (without the need to push the lever into the overinject/start position for extra fuel).

If there are any doubts about whether your injector pump is indeed supply fuel for starting - that is another good reason why "cracking the nuts on the injectors while cranking" is desirable. Not only will it get rid of any trapped air there - but fuel squirting out will confirm that your injector pump is indeed delivering fuel.

PS. I don't touch the accelerator pedal on mine (while starting) until I hear it fire up. Then I use the pedal to hold it at a fast idle.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Tom, thanks again. Your vehicle is awesome to look at! Reading this post I realized I actually knew where the choke cable was connected and must have experienced a brain fart when writing. I'll have to find a new one when I get a chance. BTW, when starting the vehicle, I have been keeping the pedal to the floor as stated in the manual. I had good success with this method when the vehicle was running last year. Does the clutch really need to be depressed as noted below?

I'm eager to check the injectors now if I can get a little help. I have not had much luck finding diesel land cruiser owners in the NYC area. The recent round of posts makes me feel a bit more optimistic about getting her running again. Feeling as if it's almost there and that my troubles are more lack of experience than anything else. Thanks and keep the info coming!