BJ40 Starter problems (1 Viewer)

[albert rodrigues]

I requested Jose go ahead and order new BEBs because they are not an expensive item. Not sure how I will direct him but... and I know many will cringe, I think I will take the 'fix what is obviously broken' route at this time. That is not to say it will be done carelessly and without thought. I spent an hour yesterday discussing what could be tested, checked and measured during/after the beb replacement. Some of the ideas were to try and isolate the flow of oil to the problem area, front beb, and determine if it is getting oil. Visually inspect, where possible, the lubrication system circuit, check the oil strainer and pipe, check the oil flow to the top of the engine. I'd like to see the engine turned over by hand post repair and do an inspection. I will request an oil pressure test post repair. The mechanic will also measure the tolerances and let me know if we are within specs post repair. Any suggestions?

What was also discussed was that this problem is not likely something that happened only after I purchased the vehicle. From the day the vehicle had a shipping inspection in El Salvador until today there have been 246 Km put on the vehicle. I may be put on 160 km since I purchased it. One of the first things I did was change the oil and filter using a synthetic made for diesel engine oil, a brand and weight recommended on mud/manual. I did not change the diffs, or trans. I greased all the fittings I was aware of at the time. I also replaced a brake line that was put together with electrical tape and replaced a clutch line that was in poor shape. Oh, I bleed the entire brake fluid and installed DOT3 maybe DOT4, I'd have to check. The brakes feel pretty good for drums all around, and I have not inspected them yet.

From my point of view, and noted in a lost post, the engine looked as if it has not been tinkered with on the bottom side. From my best pictures, I can see that the edges of most of the bolts are still very straight, almost new condition. This was also my first impression looking at the underside for the first time. From what I could feel inside one or two cylinders, they felt smoother than I would have expected for an old vehicle. Almost like they were polished smooth. Also from my impressions of the entire vehicle, she looks worn in but not too bad. Buttons still have their logos and the steering wheel is polished but not overly worn, the horn works too. All the exposed parts that could have come loose or hit a rock over time have been messed with. Transmission covers removed and new RTV sealant installed, very recently, see album picts. The engine does not look like it has been removed from the vehicle. The trans looks as it has, my guess to replace the clutch, service, who knows? The exhaust for example, is original but the brackets, pipes have all been adjusted.

I guess what I am saying is that I have some faith that the vehicle was not heavily abused, accident damaged, etc. This is leading me to conclude to fix what is broken until I know where this is all headed.

Thoughts? ideas?

BTW attached is a picture of the vehicle at the US Embassy in El Salvador. Notice the cardboard box under the oil pan collecting the oil during the week or so the PO had it stored there before shipping to the US

 

[lostmarbles]

Your cruiser sure looks great Albert and it's also good that your engine shows little sign of having undergone dodgy work.

But we're still left with the puzzle as to why the big-end bearings suffered that fate.

In the absence of "recent incorrect-assembly work" - one must conclude that your engine either lost oil pressure or was run without any oil in the sump. (We geriatrics have been known to be absent-minded - so perhaps your South American PO was age-compromised like me! )

At least we're making solid progress now in identifying underlying problems and I can certainly relate to being on a tight budget - because I am too. (My bank account hasn't recovered after buying those B-engine overhaul parts!) Although "wealth" is all "relative" of course.

So - if your engine appears "free" with the new BEBs installed but you still find your oil pressure is a bit on the low side and you have unexplained noises (which is the sort of scenario I'd expect) - at least you will know that you're in for an engine overhaul/replacement and can budget for it and maybe move your vehicle in and out of the garage under its own power (and tinker on a "going vehicle") while you allow your finances to build.

Sounds reasonable to me.

But whatever you do - HAVE THAT SEPARATE OIL PRESSURE GAUGE CONNECTED UP AND BE STUDYING IT AS SOON AS YOU (OR JOSE) TURN THE KEY TO FIRE IT UP AGAIN.

Good luck.

(Your cruiser is the biggest source of puzzlement to me that there has ever been on MUD! )

 

[albert rodrigues]

Thanks for the sage advice Tom. As for the mystery I am very curious and need to know as well. I just spent a bunch and am going to double it with this repair.

Thinking about my cruiser, I was looking at the oil pressure sensor and the shut-off picture you posted to your album. I am attaching it for reference and hope you don't mind. On my cruiser the wiring to the sensor is original but has been on and off between repairs. The connection is also pretty dirty and probably not working. On the shut-off sensor, my cruiser does not have one and has a bolt in the hole that appears original (fits well and is not out of place). Reviewing the lubrication section of the manual I can see there is flow in and out at both these devices. The flow into the block takes oil to the front section of the engine, per the diagram. That said, if the bolt is not original and is blocking oil flow, could this be a possible cause to the worn BEB? Is this even possible? As an aside, I need to ask the mechanic if the BEBs are progressively less damaged from front to back. I know for sure in position 4 the BEB, see the picture taken with my phone, was much better off than in position 1.

BTW, there was the correct amount of oil in my cruiser during my ownership at least.

Another question...regarding the topof the engine, the rocker arms. Mine are stamped 1 through 4. 1 is near the firewall, 2 on the front of the engine and 3-4 in the middle (front to back). Is this right? If wrong this would be a sign that the engine was tampered with at some point???

Thanks again!


(May be that I am reflecting more of the mystery than my cruiser. You should meet my crazy Brazilian family!)

 

[lostmarbles]

... On my cruiser the wiring to the sensor is original but has been on and off between repairs. The connection is also pretty dirty and probably not working. ..

While I am happy to use my OEM dash-mounted gauge to observe MY oil pressure - I haven't had any engine bearing problems.

In your case Albert - You have had bearing damage.

So in your case I would certainly fit an aftermarket gauge before your next engine-start - even if it is just a temporary gauge on the end of a hose connected into one of those ports (where my sender unit or cut-out switch sit).

....On the shut-off sensor, my cruiser does not have one and has a bolt in the hole that appears original (fits well and is not out of place). Reviewing the lubrication section of the manual I can see there is flow in and out at both these devices. The flow into the block takes oil to the front section of the engine, per the diagram. That said, if the bolt is not original and is blocking oil flow, could this be a possible cause to the worn BEB? Is this even possible?...

I wouldn't have thought it likely Albert - but if you fit your aftermarket oil pressure gauge there - You'll be removing that "bolt" at the same time and can check that possibility out.

.. As an aside, I need to ask the mechanic if the BEBs are progressively less damaged from front to back. I know for sure in position 4 the BEB, see the picture taken with my phone, was much better off than in position 1. ...

I've been trying to work out which bearings might get "favoured" with oil flow (should the oil pressure drop abnormally low):



Looks to me like the centre bearings would be favoured with Nos 1 and 4 BEBs being equally unfavoured. In any case - I can't see from the diagram why No1 BEB should suffer worse than No4 BEB. So perhaps the wrong size shells were fitted to No. 1? (Thoughts anyone?) .....EDit- Another idea (mentioned to me) is that perhaps the end-caps have been mixed up during previous engine work.

...Another question...regarding the topof the engine, the rocker arms. Mine are stamped 1 through 4. 1 is near the firewall, 2 on the front of the engine and 3-4 in the middle (front to back). Is this right? If wrong this would be a sign that the engine was tampered with at some point???..

But there are 8 rocker arms (one for each valve)? And normal numbering practice is to work from front to rear?

Whatever you are referring to, .....if the number sequence is mixed up .... it does indeed suggest "careless assembly". (Photos please?)

.....(May be that I am reflecting more of the mystery than my cruiser. You should meet my crazy Brazilian family!)

I expect we'd get on well. I don't call myself "lostmarbles" for nothing!

 

[rockcrawler]

Just a thought Albert, before removing No.1 BEB cap did you check that it was facing the right way? If you have a pic taken before removal you should be able to tell easily enough as they have a mark at the front.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Just a thought Albert, before removing No.1 BEB cap did you check that it was facing the right way? If you have a pic taken before removal you should be able to tell easily enough as they have a mark at the front.

I'll have to ask the mechanic if he noticed. I arrived after his inspection and took all the pictures then. Thanks again for your input, these discussions are great.

 

[rockcrawler]

No problem. You might also want to check if the caps are in the right order, hopefully they will be marked.

 

[albert rodrigues]

If you are refering to the bottom end caps, yes, they appear to be in order from 1 to 5. #1 is on the front side opposite the firewall. Pictures attached.

 

[lostmarbles]

If you are refering to the bottom end caps, yes, they appear to be in order from 1 to 5. #1 is on the front side opposite the firewall. Pictures attached.

Those 5 caps are the MAIN BEARING caps Albert. They are not the BIG-END caps (of which there are only 4).

When people talk about "big ends" and "little ends" they are talking about the ends of the "connecting rods" (conrods) that connect the pistons to the crankshaft (and thereby convert the piston's up-and-down movement into rotational movement of the crankshaft).

Rockcrawler is right in that there is a serious possibility that someone worked on your engine before and may have caused this big-end-bearing damage through "assembly error".

They may have put a big end cap on the wrong way around (if that's possible - I dunno) or mixed up the caps and put the wrong cap on the wrong connecting rod. Either of these things would account for the bearing shells becoming distorted and "clamping the crankshaft journals" - Hence you'd get "bearing seizure" like you've found.

On disassembly, Jose should have been automatically checking to see that all the big-end caps were attached to their correct connecting rods and orientated the correct way.

Where the factory hasn't put "match marks" on the rods/caps - it is essential that the dismantler does it himself/herself to ensure the same cap is mated back to the same rod in the same way. And similarly, the pistons and rods must go back in exactly the same cylinders in exactly the same way during reassembly................If you know what I mean.

By the way ...........I can see from your photos that the main bearing caps are numbered in sequence from 1 to 5. But as I see it, the numbering starts from the FRONT of your engine from (as I would expect). ...........So why did you say "#1 is on the side opposite the firewall". This looks like you're saying "CLOSE to the firewall"? And this is not what I see.

Another thing Jose should have done is to seriously inspect the "dregs" in the bottom of your oil pan to help determine the extent of the "loss of bearing material". (For instance - If he were to find more debris there than could be accounted for by the "scouring of those big end shells" - then it suggests other hidden bearing-damage exists.)



PS. I'm no authority on "engine building" by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just working off knowledge gained by "occasional tinkering over an extended period of time", by observing other peoples experiences, by listening to others, etc etc.

 

[albert rodrigues]

OK, I am not being clear and it is causing a bit of confusion. Thanks for the clarification of terms on all the parts guys, I will try to re-explain. The Main bearing caps are numbered 1 through 5. Number 1 is directly adjacent to the oil pump gears.

As far as the big end caps go, I did not check for numbers, direction or sequence. The mechanic, as far as I know, only removed the big end cap for 1 and 4 as well as those bearings. I believe all the other caps are in place and he is waiting on parts/me to move forward. I am pretty sure he knows how the bearings were positioned. I will ask him if they were in the wrong way. I know he showed me the small notch on the bearings and was explaining how they register when in place.

On the first day when the oil pan was off I inspected the debris in the bottom of the pan. The only bits I saw looked like they came off the bearing; see picture below. The biggest piece I found, on a very quick inspection, was the one on the end of my finger in the picture. It looked like it was from the bad bearing closest to the oil pump gear.

I hope to make another visit tomorrow and I will poke around a bit more, hopefully I can take clear pictures of what we are discussing. I want to clarify, more for my sake, the things you are suggesting for good measure. I'm pretty confident the mechanic knows how to do the proper job. He is very methodical and shows me he puts a lot of thought into what he is doing.

Picture of the oil pan below taken before I found the small bits from what I suspect is the bad bearing.

 

[rockcrawler]

That's fine re Jose Albert, he may well be checking things, we are just pointing things out to you as to what to look out for. When trying to figure things out like this you have to take the viewpoint that you don't know what has been done to the engine and anything is possible. That's why I would have it on the stand What's the word on the rockers? If that head was removed it could well have been to change rings/BEB's and who knows... maybe even SEB's. A cockup on a job like that can lead to expensive consequences, both with the damage it can cause and the work it takes to sort it out. Your engine gave you plenty of warning and refused to run further. You could have just heard bang and had a rod coming out the side instead.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Bad Bearing

Hey, just noticed the oil hole in the bad bearing is off center while the one is position 4 is closer to center or centered. Can someone have installed the wrong bearing? I'll veryfy during today's visit.

 

[lostmarbles]

Hey, just noticed the oil hole in the bad bearing is off center while the one is position 4 is closer to center or centered. Can someone have installed the wrong bearing? I'll veryfy during today's visit.

Is it really off-centre or has the lower shell just been buckled due to the difficulty in removing it? (It was probably stuck quite solidly to the crankshaft.)

The lower shell looks buckled to me.

If the hole is truly in a different position to the where it is on the other shells then you could be onto "wrong shells on that rod" as being the cause of the seizure Albert.

Does Jose have an opinion on why the bearing damage occured and why it would reasonably be expected to be restricted to the just one part of your motor? (Restricted to the BEBs on one end?)

Without identifying the cause of your bearing seizure - You face the likelihood of it reoccurring (and of reassembling the engine while other serious faults remain hidden within it).

The lack of debris in the sump is a good sign - Although it could alternatively just add weight to the idea that your engine has recently undergone repair work.

Your engine also sounded OK in the video which is another good sign.



I suspect whatever work was done inside your engine was done just before you bought your cruiser. - This supicion is based on how you had trouble turning it over on the starter. And how you couldn't turn it over "via a wrecking bar and socket on the crankshaft/pulley nut". And how it suddenly turned very freely (if you remember on that video). And then how it must have "seized up rather solidly" on No.1 BEB after you drove it for that short distance.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Update

Well, I could not confirm the bearing holes as Jose was busy and I could only find the badly worn bearings. Yes they are definitely warped left to right. A large lip developed as a result of the problem.

The vehicle was off the lift and I was only able to photograph the top end with my phone. There is evidence that there has been service to the top end but nothing very serious as far as I could tell. One or two nuts had dings in the corners, but not multiple dings or dents, looked like a one-time hit on the nuts and bolts. The slots on the top of the rocker support bolts looked in great shape and all were in almost new condition. No signs they have really been abused. I'll post some of the picts below.

Jose highly recommended an oil pressure gauge in the cab, fluid filled type? Sorry I can't remember the term but he said it would have the oil flow directly through it. He will also inspect the bolt that replaces the oil pressure engine shut off sensor to see if it affecting oil flow. I asked to confirm the order and direction of the BEB caps.

Next steps early next week... He will replace all the BEBs, torque the caps down and check the tolerances using plastic-gauge. If there is too much play we will discuss and go from there. He will try to check the oil flow and we discussed the oil pump and possible pump service.

 

[albert rodrigues]

more pictures below.

 

[albert rodrigues]

and a few more.

 

[lostmarbles]

Glad to hear Jose is keen on fitting an aftermarket oil pressure gauge too.

And I really appreciate your photos Albert.

Your rockers/valves etc look at least as good as mine!

I suspect your "oil pressure cut-out switch" was removed (and the hole plugged) when your EDIC was removed.

Interesting about the numbering of the rockers!!!!!!!!!

I've checked back in my photos to find that my rocker numbering is incorrect too. (At least - They aren't numbered 1 to 8 starting from the front as I would have expected!!!!!)

Here I'll show you.... You can clearly see that number one is NOT my first rocker:



So that odd number sequence you have there may be nothing to worry about (and may not suggest that your rockers have been mixed up by some careless PO at all). ....... Because my rockers have never been removed EVER (unless it was done in my BJ40's 1st year of existance because I've owned it ever since then)!

Perhaps a random number sequence is normal with the rockers? (Anyone?)

Any my BJ40 developed an exhaust leak at that same exhaust port (close to the firewall) many years ago. And since I had left it leaking for some time - the escaping gases had worn a path in the manifold casting. So I replaced the entire manifold (keeping the original as a spare). - ........But replacement manifolds were readily available then and not that expensive. .....You may be able to repair that manifold by "lapping it on wet&dry emery paper on a "lapping plate" if it has suffered similarly. But if there is no manifold wear/damage - just a new gasket should fix it. (However beware of exhaust studs breaking and needing replacement.)



PS. I notice a bolt has been used on your exhaust pipe connection (to the manifold) instead of the "stud and nut" that it should have. ... But then that would be normal to find on a vehicle that a "fast-fit muffler shop has worked on".

I like to use OEM studs with extra long aftermarket brass nuts myself. - The brass is much less likely to "seize onto the steel" and I use "copper grease" there too to help with future nut-removal.

 

[albert rodrigues]

New disiscovery

OK guys my crank is in worse shape than expected and with the new bearing in place it is out of round and outside of the normal tolerances. I was told it is 2 thousandths out. Seems many of you guys were correct in saying the BJ has been heavily used.

I've spent quite a bit now and wanted another round of comments regarding the next step. I'm told maybe the best thing to do is buy a new or used (re-ground) crank and all new main and rod bearings. New rings, have the head re-surfaced and checked. Maybe a new oil pump. My guess is I'm looking at spending another 2K to make these repairs. Does it make more sense to buy a complete rebuild kit and hope the block is ok and have the entire engine rebuilt? Not that I have that money laying around but it is worth hearing from the people who deal with these issues daily. I am expecting this to be a long process at this point so, I'm not going to rush the process and try to enjoy it if I am going to keep the vehicle.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Thinking of installing a used crank

Seems like if I want to keep my budget in mind, I have to stick with a used - re-ground - crank with all new rod and main bearings. Does it make sense to replace the bottom end componets and try to start the vehicle before deciding to work the top of the engine?

 

[albert rodrigues]

oil cooler

Tom if you are around I thought you may find this interesting. I was digging around on mudd and reading other posts on BEB's etc. Sounds like I may have more problems than just bearings. The mechanic is making a black hole, I mean list of parts, and I'm planning the next steps.

I looked more closely today at a web site I had browsed before and came across the attached diagram that I think is a match for my vehicle year and South American setup. www.toyodiy.com The diagram shows the oil cooler without a sensor. The bolt looks like my setup. I'll have to remove it to check if t is a direct match. More food for thought. ar