BJ40 Starter problems (1 Viewer)

[lostmarbles]

To continue from my last post ----- Surely you can't be unlucky enough to have a seized engine as well as having a faulty starter (and as well as perhaps having a faulty alternator)!!!!!!!

....bench test ...was unsuccessful.

...the 50 terminal .....touches the housing as soon as the starter engages and nothing more happens

I suspect "nothing more happens" because your 50 terminal has been pushed inwards by "shipping damage" to stop your plunger from completing its travel.

....I was only able to get the starter to pop but not spin....

.... The inside of the 50 terminal interfers with the operation of the plunger......

....Comparing the old and the new starter, the old 50 terminal is shorter on the inside........

Hold it here Albert!

This last sentence implies that your "50 terminal" has indeed been knocked inwards and needs to be pushed back out to its correct position so it no longer interferes with the movement of your plunger (before you use "JB Weld" to secure it).

....I placed the plunger back into the starter and pushed down on it and it will not go down towards the contacts without touching the insde of the 50 terminal. Could this be??? Am I just unfamilar with this or is it possible that this starter was never tested properly?....

As mentioned above, it sounds like your "50 terminal" has indeed been knocked inwards and needs to be pushed back out.

...I would like to use JB weld to hold the terminal where it was based on the inside position of the plastic housing around the 50 terminal on the inside. I could then try another bench test BUT, if I were to do that, should the plunger be below or above the 50 terminal? House does the plunger work? Does it need to touch the contacts to move up or down or is it a magnetic thing? ...

It is a "magnetic thing".

When current flows through both the "pull-in" and "holding" coils - those coils become "energised" and thus exert magnetism to draw the plunger towards those big electrical contacts Albert.

...Regarding turning the engine, I have not given it another try. I'm hoping I can't turn it because it requires more force than I can muster. I will purchase a shorter 1/2" ratchet to see if I can give it another turn. Also the ratchet I was using interfered with the fan blades because I was only able to use it with the handle facing the passenger's side pulling UP on it until it got close to the fan blades. My tool would not fit in any other position....

Well I'm a 56 year-old weakling so you must be able to muster more force than me (and I can turn mine).

Like you, I also find it hard to believe that your engine could be seized without you being aware of a cause.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Looking at the starter and the picts, the 50 terminal must have miniscule clearance between the plunger and the starter even in the perfect position. I don't see how the plunger slid by even when I push the terminal out to where I believe the plastic broke off. Id like to get a vise grip on the outside of the terminal and create some pull tension on it if I use the JB weld.

In removing the starter, I removed the hydraulic clutch? line from the frame to gain clearance. Maybe because it was off the frame and I did not engage the clutch to move the transmission out of gear, it could still be in gear and not neutral. I'll re-check, maybe I'm just making a dumb mistake on this one, I really hope so, otherwise I'll have to determine the cost benefit of the engine overhaul. I can't imagine anyone taking on the project on the cheap, not to mention trying to find someone familiar with the vehicle.

Thanks for the picts, I'll check some things tomorrow and post anything new.

 

[Ron R]

Take advantage of the situation regarding the tranny being in gear. If you move the rig then the engine should turn as well.
If you can move the rig without remarkable effort the tranny won't be in gear. Just put it in gear to check or the engine can rotate. If positive don't forget to get it out of gear again.

 

[lostmarbles]

Any progress Albert?

Here's a picture of the inside of your original solenoid with a smaller image of your new starter's "damaged 50 terminal" alongside it:



From this, you can see how much further back that pushed-in terminal needs to go.



PS. Actually that small image makes it look like your "50 terminal" was pushed in so far that it hit your live "30 terminal". I hope this is just a "photographic illusion" because if it actually did touch, your solenoid is likely to have overheated and become damaged too. (You can see this from the wiring diagram I posted earlier.)


Sorry to be a cheer-germ

 

[albert rodrigues]

Tom
I have not touched it. The side by side phots help, thanks. I will take a real close look before I take action. To me, it seems like the 50 terminal is longer on the new starter. I doubt it however, and really think the plastic terminal was pushed in about .5cm as you suggest. For the repair I bought regular JB weld and a quick dry version. I was hoping to use the quick dry so I can actually hold the terminal in place for about 5 min for the jb weld to setup. Regular jb weld takes much longer to set and 15hrs before any stress is put on the repaired area.

I still have not checked if it was in gear when I tried to turn the crank nut. I hope this one was just a dumb oversight issue on my part.

My wife is back from a business trip so now I can hopefully find time to escape from the kids over the weekend. Ill post as soon as I can.

BTW, what should I expect to spend on the rebuild kit you posted a while back? I don't think I will abandon the project even if the problem is more serious. I may however put the BJ in my dad's barn and give the space to my wife this winter.

 

[lostmarbles]

...BTW, what should I expect to spend on the rebuild kit you posted a while back? ...

Well I paid the equivalant of just over $US1400 in May this year. So I'd expect you to pay no/little more than that, even taking into account your higher shipping cost (because $1400 then represents only $US1000 today as a result of the American dollar gaining strength against both the Aussi and Kiwi dollars).
And that kit contained:
4 cylinder liners
4 pistons
con rod bearing set
Main bearing set
4 gudgeon pin bushes
full gasket set
piston ring set
4 precombustion chambers
4 reconditioned injectors
(And the cost included shipping etc from Australia to NZ.)

But I paid extra for the injectors because I decided to keep my originals rather than exchanging them. (I like to hold my original injectors as spares.)

 

[albert rodrigues]

Wow, that's less than I would have expected. thank you for the info.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Getting There

I finally repaired the terminal on my starter using JB weld. The repair came out better than expected and I put it back in the BJ. I was able to get half a crank out of the battery. The good news is that I do not have anything seized, I am finally confirming that I have a bad 'new' battery and a bad alternator. I left the battery to charge over night and will see if I can get the engine to start this evening.

Regarding turning the engine by had, I tried as best I could but nothing. I'm not sure how others are able to do it as I could barely get anthing to even budge.

I'll post pictures of my alternator again to see if anyone would know the correct part number for my rig. My alternator is not a correct match for the vehicle but it worked as some point, just not for me.

Thanks all for your help, I'm looking forward to finally using the BJ this summer for short trips to the local reservoir and some kyaking.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Need advise

GuysShould I send out my alternator for repairs or should I buy a new (used unit)?The PO in El Salvador bought the BJ and had to put in a new battery just before shipping. He also never used the vehicle, he traded it just before leaving for the US as he could not bring the newer LC he had back with him. A few months in transit and then I got the rig to NJ and needed a new battery. I know the current alt is not OEM as it does not fit the brackets, it also does not have easy access to the brushes.If I can match my vacuum pump to a correct used unit, is this a better idea than repairing the one I have not knowing if it ever worked for the BJ?

 

[albert rodrigues]

Still no start

I had the alternator re-built at a local shop. I got to see the shop test the unit and it seemed to be operating at more than 13.5v. It's in the BJ with a new optima yellow top battery. Before trying to crank the engine I tested the battery and it was a bit low so I let it charge all day. Finally when it seemed to max out at about 13.5V I gave it a try. The engine did turn over but very slowly, maybe one complete turn. The disappointment is extremely high at this point. The only thing I can think of is that Lostmarbles is correct regarding the gear-reduction nose on the new starter is not the same as the old burnt up unit. Any thoughts? The starter engages without any abnormal sounds, just does not spin quickly.

I think I will take the original starter to the guy who re-built my alternator and put it in the truck if he can repair it. If this does not work, I'm lost!

 

[albert rodrigues]

Original Starter Repair

Ok, so I figured if I put the truck back together the way I got it things should work again. I had the auto electric guy rebuild the original starter. Somehow he found a replacement for a section of the starter all in half a day. He said he was amazed how powerful the starter was and that it came out of a toyota. He stated that the internals of the starter were pretty fried. Not sure if he was just preping me for the huge bill he handed over. Anyhow, the pictures below show where I am at right now. He took the time to media blast the nose cone, paint and make it look good from the outside. Upon further inspection this evening, I noticed he did not do much to repair the sheathing around the large wire on the outside of the starter but did provide a new rubber gromet on the terminal. He said if I needed anything more that he would take care of it, fingers crossed and I hope it will at least start the truck. In the next day or so Ill know if I bought the wrong starter (the one in the bj now) and if nothing internal (engine wise) is busted. If anyone is interested, I was just wanting an opinion on the gauge of the wires on the new battery. The starter repair guy asked to make sure the wires were well sized to ensure a proper start and the health of the electrical system. The cables are the largest I could find at the local AutoZone.

 

[lostmarbles]

Hi Albert.

That "thick black cabling" that I see attached to your battery looks large enough to me.

But I'm a bit puzzled about what your electrical guy has done.

It should be relatively easy to get a replacement "motor-solenoid-assy" off a Hilux starter (for example) that will mate up with your old "nose". And doing that would have gotten rid of your "bare wire issue". The main trap is to make sure you get a donor-starter that has enough power output (because motors may look the same from the outside yet have a lower power-output ----- and a larger engine doesn't necessarily have a more-powerful starter).

The only way I can be confident of getting the right donor-starter is if it has the original Toyota part number sticker on it. I then look this number up on the EPC to find the power rating. (I've gone thru this exercise myself just now and have a 2.5kW Hilux starter in my garage that will act as my "donor" should I ever experience the need. ..........Apart from simply bolting the "new" motor-solenoid-assembly to my old "nose" - the only other job I foresee is "re-orientating the drain-hose on the brush-cover-housing to the bottom (because of the different angle the starter will end up sitting at compared to being on the Hilux).

What part number is on the motor that your electrical guy supplied? Or did he replace something other than the motor?

 

[albert rodrigues]

Hi Tom thanks for the reply. He replaced the magnetic switch on the old starter, not the motor as far as I understood him. Unfortunately I only had a few minutes with the guy and he gave me a quick explaination and I had to run, not the best way to try to solve my problem, I know. I'm really not sure if he disassembled the motor, did any cleanup on the inside or what. It looks in better overall condition than when I delivered it including the thick cable that was patched. The magnetic switch is definitly new, it includes the little rubber plug, new gromet, fresh paint. My old contacts inside were in perfect condition since I had just replaced them before my problem, I think he just re-used them given the plastic portion of the 30 terminal looks like the one I gave him. If I get it in the BJ this week and it does not function properly I will take it back to the repair guy and spend the time explaining all the details. I'll also give him a copy of the FSM section. I really have my fingers crossed on this one. I have not had the time to dedicate to all the details of getting the BJ running again and hope this was not another jerk reaction to lead me in the wrong direction.

 

[albert rodrigues]

No start

The rebuilt old starter was able to turn the engine but it never sounded too happy. The sound made as the engine cranks seems very 'laborious'. Just thinking that I have a bigger problem and may be the reason I could not turn the engine over by hand at the crank pully nut. If anyone is interested the following is a youtube link to a short video YouTube - 090621 BJ40 starting troubles

 

[lostmarbles]

The rebuilt old starter was able to turn the engine but it never sounded too happy. The sound made as the engine cranks seems very 'laborious'. Just thinking that I have a bigger problem and may be the reason I could not turn the engine over by hand at the crank pully nut. If anyone is interested the following is a youtube link to a short video YouTube - 090621 BJ40 starting troubles

Hi Albert. Good idea to post the video!

I take it that the voltage you show is your battery voltage after charging it with that fancy charger? If so, what figure does it drop to while you're cranking?

That first go at starting it doesn't sound too bad (taking into account that the vehicle is in an enclosed space and sounds are being amplified by that). And I think if mine had been "glowed" it probably would have started on that sort of cranking speed!

I got the impression that the battery lost most of its charge after that first attempt though.

But I'm still puzzled why you can't turn your engine with a "ratchet and socket" on the pulley nut.


PS. If you lived closer - I'd come round and take a look!

 

[albert rodrigues]

The voltage drops to 12.5-12.6 very quickly after a stat attemp. I after each attempt I am allowing it to charge for a while. To me it sounds diferent than before all the troubles. A bit like metal on metal, harsh sounding. The only thing left to check now is if my glow system is working again. Yesterday I almost had what sounded like a near start (normal sound) for about 1/2 second and was convinced I would get her going today.

I guess I can always drop the oild pan and see what's there or remove a valve cover. Not sure what to do to be honest. I also dont want to spend much more for a while. Just spent the past wo weekends fixing our daily drivers, about $1000 on my wifes car and now tomorrow I have to spend about $600 on mine. 2000 Mustang GT, Ticking sound and hesitation - Page 2 - Ford Mustang Forums
thanks again, maybe its time to track down a mechanic n my area if I can find one.

 

[beejay42]

Hi Albert,
I just read through your whole thread. What a trial by bloody fire! I am sorry for your suffering and feel it quite familiar to my entrance to 40 ownership.

Have you checked out the earths? If so, have you REALLY checked them out?

I had a lot of troubles starting my rig when I first got it. Sometimes it would turn over, others not, and never would it start. Got a new battery, old was near dead- no joy... got the starter rebuilt (which was stuffed also), and then it turned over but only weakly- precisely like yours is doing. Swapped the new battery for another new one, thinking the battery was a dud, and no joy.
If I jumped my fully charged battery (700CCA) with another in a running car, then I could get enough power to turn it barely fast enough to start- it would start, and sometimes even, when it was warm restart so long as the battery was full to the brim- then when it was cold again, back to the same problem- turning over like a slug like yours is doing, and no starting.

I was at a loss- and explaining it to my old landlord at the time, it seemed pretty obvious to him...
the battery had more than enough power, the starter motor was working...

He helped me to search for voltage drop (coz I am an electical noob). Me and the old fella went through the whole circuit- battery to starter, and beyond and back again. We found an earth cable from the engine to the chassis, which to all extents looked fine but was apparantly not... a small voltage drop but nothing too extreme.
tested if was the problem by clipping on some big good old jump cables (fat old welding cables with aligator clips) from the block to a cleaned up bit of the chassis (ie providing a definite good earth from engine to chassis)- turned it over and it FINALLY fired and turned with gusto. Really, it was like my starter motor went from an arthritic 89 year old man climbing the stairs, to Mohammad Ali in his prime, punching those pistons up and down Night and day.
Replaced this earth and everything was fine and has been since (well aside from all the other issues)
I don't really know precisely how to repeat what we did, and this is because I am still pretty lousy with a multimeter, but for someone with basic knowledge and a multimeter it was quite easy but just needed two people and some persistence to check and double check everything.


Good luck- don't despair (though I did), you will get there.

P.S. a very easy test to see if by some miracle it is the exact same problem as mine would be to earth the block to the chassi with a jumper lead and try to start it- chances are just as likely though that it could be another earth, and better to go through the whole circuit because you could be loosing bits and pieces here and there..

 

[albert rodrigues]

Thanks for the reply. I think you may have something here. I had to replace the power lead to the starter because the old one fried. I have not even inspected the two grounds, one to the engine and the other to the fuel h20 separator, even though they look ok. I will use a pair of jumper cables to ground the battery to the chasis and give it a shot. Its sounds so simple and obvious but I have not checked it. A few people have said that it sounds normal, based on my youtube post. One landcruiser mechanic suggested I attach a second battery to add more amps, sounds a bit crazy and I'm hesitant to try ad fry more things.

 

[beejay42]

Yeah, it doesn't sound too far off normal to me, and I agree with Tom, if mine was glowed really well or actually warm from running already, it would possibly start.
I was thinking of adding another battery too, ludicrous really, just to get the thing to turn over properly. How many CCA is your battery?

My battery to chassis earth was fine. I figured the engine to chassis one (under the right hand side on mine, sortof near the tacho sender) probably wears out on these things because of the engine vibration.
If you going to do a jumper lead test, then sure, try a good battery to chassis, but aslo try the block to chassis.
Good luck.
Hans.

 

[albert rodrigues]

I was thinking of adding another battery too, ludicrous really, just to get the thing to turn over properly. How many CCA is your battery?

Its a 750CCA battery. I will follow your lead with the jumper cables. I don't ever recall seeing a engine to chasis ground. I've replaced the two battery grounds and they still seem fine. I'll search for the third ground. Thanks again for the suggestion.
Albert