Better towing power/economy upgrade options

[Slowguy432]

Love my Toyotas but when I got my Toyhauler my Tundra just wasnt happy - Got a Chevy 2500 Duramax. Been more than pleased with it. Heck ,I literally pulled a 18 wheeler out of a ditch at work this week with it - I say get you a new truck then pull the cruiser and the trailer - lol -

 

[SmokingRocks]

I've always salivated over an LQ4 swap.... But the purist in me is tempted to completely rebuild a spare 1fz-fe on a stand for mild boost via turbo then swap it in.

Will probably go this route.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Love my Toyotas but when I got my Toyhauler my Tundra just wasnt happy - Got a Chevy 2500 Duramax. Been more than pleased with it. Heck ,I literally pulled a 18 wheeler out of a ditch at work this week with it - I say get you a new truck then pull the cruiser and the trailer - lol -

What year tundra? I had a 14' 1794 with trailer brakes, I hauled my 80 from Denver to moab last year on a dual axle trailer (9500lb total) and it did ok. I suppose if you had the 4.7 it would not be a good.

My gripe about the tundra is that it doesn't share it's transmission with the 200. Instead you get a 6 speed with two over drives.... So when pulling up an incline it lives in 3rd gear, same pull in the 200 is in 4th gear at roughly the same RPM as the tundra in 3rd.

Why does that matter you ask? Toyota programs their cruise control to drop anytime the rig shifts down to 3rd. So instead of cruising comfortably for the long haul you have to keep your foot on the gas.

Asked Toyota about it and they referenced me to a page in the manual stating that cruise control is not to be used while towing... Idk why, I've driven freightliners and kenworths with cruise control. It's fatiguing to have to constantly modulate the throttle on a 5-6 hour drive, I'd rather have my attention on my trailer and the upcoming curves.

For a rig that extensivly was advertised as a heavy hauler this was a major disappointment and one of the several reasons I sold my tundra.

My advice, skip the tundra and buy a 200 (even 07-08 is fine) add air bags and a brake controller. You'll be happy.

 

[Slowguy432]

^ I had a 2005 Double Cab 4x4 w the 4.7 - great ,great truck but like you said , it would scream going up hills when pulling a trailer.The cruise control thing sucked too - my 2500 will pull my toyhauler with 4 motorcycles, all the gear that goes along w doing races or trackdays , 4 people in the cab and running between 70 and 80 and still get 10 mpg with power to spare.

 

[Cruzerman]

I say live with it. But then again, I own a 40 and a 60, so I'm used to going slow. If it makes it over the hill without me pushing, I'm good with it.

 

[miahshodan]

Getting a tow vehicle isn't a solution for me. I do more overlanding/camping than rock-crawling. I often go places where I need the 35s and lockers pulling the trailer. That is why I got a small trailer with 33s. The goal of the trailer is mostly to cut down on preparation/setup/takedown time and make my wife a little more comfortable, so we will get out more. I may look for an already modified 100/200 but I also tend to stay away from things like air suspension that could fail and leave me stranded a hundred miles from the nearest road. (I had an Audi allroad with airbags that failed on me)

The superchargers seem to be available from many sources online for about $4k, but that is without intercooler or install.

 

[SmokingRocks]

early 200's have coils. And to my knowledge the only 100's available with air suspension were of the lexus variety.

Honestly if you are looking at motor swap I wouldn't waste time with the L series 5.3. While its good for just the rig its not great for towing, its only like a 15% increase over stock power. IMO that is not enough to justify the expense and build headache.

I would instead start looking for an LQ4 or LQ9 (the 9 is a bit more rare and sometime more $$, but you never know what deal you might find). If you can find an L33 (5.3 in some silverado's) that would be the only 5.3 I would suggest, but those are rare and usually demand a premium.

The LQ4/9's are 6 liter v8's that are better for towing. Plus you'll love the growl.

edit: and if you couldn't tell by now I'm not a fan of diesels, yes the concept is sound and there are absolutely benefits to a properly tuned turbo diesel set up. But they are heavy, costly and take time to get on the power. Those whom I've talked to that have swapped one in (other than a toyota diesel) don't truly care for them. (But those that have and do will respond below I'm sure.)

Big gasser V8 = instant response, great sound, good torque and HP. Sure it won't be as great at the mpg's as an oil burner but we are talking about an 80 here. Aerodynamics like a barn and as heavy as the USS Enterprise.

 

[Dave 2000]

GTurboed and intercooled 1HD-T with a H151 behind it - good power and torque and gets mid teen litres/100 km towing. I may be biased though...

As an 80 diesel owner I am offering another biased opinion. The HDJ80 has a train weight of 7.5 tons! So that puts some perspective on it. Both the 12 valve and the 24 valve versions are pretty bulletproof (but check the BEB's on the 12 valve). You get low lugging power with a diesel, I can hit the local 500 metre climb at the bottom at 90 MPH in 5th and not change gear and still hold that speed. You get no complex electronics, common problems with engine swaps are the electric stuff early diesels are easy peasy (or buy one already done), and when not towing I easy get 27 - 29 MPG (imp gallon). With the roof rack loaded with one of the spares and a RTT, fridge in the back and camping gear, food, and other stuff, the mileage drops to around 24 - 26? I do tend to drive slower when loaded up but, it will keep going, even with no mechanical engine cooling fan (all electric) it never gets too hot. Want more power, leave the stock turbo in their and tweak the pump, want even more then fit the intercooler kit but me, I love it as it is. And the reliability of diesel motors has been proven with out doubt, just think, opening the bonnet once a year to service it. Oil and three filters and your done, forget plugs, leads, head gaskets, OBD light at inspection time. Initial outlay is higher but, bring your better mileage and lower servicing costs to the table and you will be the winner.

I also noted your comment about others doing the swap (engine or even car), they have seen the light, of course there will always be the nay sayers , there was when I done the 24 to 12volt starter conversion, it worked and is now copied, and I saw the same with the electric engine cooling fan, it will never work was the cry but I did it, and not only does it work, keeping the engine cool in one of Spain's hottest summers on record, it has improved the AC efficiency as well, just another benefit. All information and facts and figures in My LC 80 thread.

Just my 2 euros worth.

regards

Dave

 

[lazy]

I would instead start looking for an LQ4 or LQ9 (the 9 is a bit more rare and sometime more $$, but you never know what deal you might find). If you can find an L33 (5.3 in some silverado's) that would be the only 5.3 I would suggest, but those are rare and usually demand a premium.

The problem with the lq4, is it can be mated to a 4l80e. Which would be much better towing, but as far as I know, there isn't a build thread on the interwebz with someone doing a swap in to a 80 w/ a 4l80e. So yes, mark's sells an adapter kit, but how well does it work? Ideally, you buy the motor and tranny as one, but swapping the tranny is very doable, and probably minimal headaches. The lq4 came in denalis and escalades and few other vehicles w/ the 4l60e.

I looked at rebuilding the 1fzfe, and if doing a lm7 swap, you'll probably pay another $2-$3k for the vortec over rebuilding (all diy). Assuming you want to do some performance work to the 1fzfe. I'm expecting to spend about $7k - $8k on my swap, but I'm doing some extras. Very possible to do it in the $5k to $6k range, if you stick to an LM7, which, IMO, isn't a bad option. They are more common, and you can slam a different cam and some springs in for the $600ish range to get you the power you need. All this is cheaper if you want to slum around some junk yards, have the time to pull yourself and pick up the motor and tranny cheap. jmo.

 

[SmokingRocks]

cool thing about the L series engines, besides the fact that they are bullet proof, is that any part store in anytown USA has any part you need.

 

[Qball]

LS swap or 200, pretty simple really. With 200 you don't need lockers with their fancy gizmos.

 

[miahshodan]

@Dave 2000 The thing I don't understand about the diesel is how it can pull any better up I than the gas engine. Given that the gas engine makes more horsepower If I can get close to the peak horsepower RPM, I should be able to go up the hill faster than the diesel (both stock). correct. The benefit of the diesel is that my mileage will be better and I won't have to shift as much. Am I thinking right?

@Qball haven't seen a 200 series for less than $30k, and that is without a or any mods, that is in a whole other money range.

 

[Qball]

[USER=79407]@Qball haven't seen a 200 series for less than $30k, and that is without a or any mods, that is in a whole other money range.[/USER]

So any swap will be 20-25k, add time and the small things and gremlins along the way for a completely custom setup. Death by 1000 bites, in the end you will spend well over 30k and endless amount of time in it while still wondering about reliability when in middle of no where. Leave a good design alone is my way of thinking.


A 200 really doesn't need lift or anything, just don't take it on hard trails and that's all. If so don't worry about scratches.

 

[Onefastrx7turbo]

A stock LM7 produces around 360HP and 385ft/lbs of torque. If you want to change the bumpstick and the intake manifold, you could squeeze even more power out of it. If you are going to spend the money and time to swap motors, going with a GM V8 is hands down winner. I love Toyota, but nothing Toyota produces can compete with the power potential and cost benefit of the Vortec motors.

 

[Dave 2000]

@Miahshoden you are right but it is about torque, diesel engines tend to develop power low in the rev range, I was simply demonstrating that they are not the slugs they are made out to be. Fill your trailer and car to MTW, with a petrol you will need to be turning more revolutions to pull away, you will be changing gear more often, as you approach the aforementioned hill, and as the revolutions start to fall your gasoline engine drops out of it's power band, the diesel will continue to slug away for much longer before the need to change. I can drive around most bends and even larger roundabouts without changing down from 5th in fact IMO the 80 diesel is under geared in top and could pull a 6th if it was fitted.

regards

Dave 2000

 

[Dave 2000]

A stock LM7 produces around 360HP and 385ft/lbs of torque. If you want to change the bumpstick and the intake manifold, you could squeeze even more power out of it. If you are going to spend the money and time to swap motors, going with a GM V8 is hands down winner. I love Toyota, but nothing Toyota produces can compete with the power potential and cost benefit of the Vortec motors.

I know nothing about the LM7 (or any other modern American V8) but the OP was more about, a bit of extra power and decent fuel mileage, also keep in mind the 80 will have the trailer on most of the time so he is not a racing driver. When you look at the votes the SUPERCHARGE or BIG ENGINE votes are possibly coming from more power hungry and perhaps (with respect) younger readers or older readers with spare funds to throw around?

regards

Dave

 

[SmokingRocks]

@Onefastrx7turbo what stock LM7 makes 360hp? they are rated at 270-290hp 315-330ft/lb depending on year and application.

This is a dyno chart of an LM7 with a Comp 212/218 115 LSA Hi-Lift Cam

This is an cammed LQ4 dyno chart;

Notice the relativly flat torque curve. Also as the LM7's torque fades the LQ4 torque is peaking. This is where your engine will be running when towing up a hill and thats where its good to have the twisting power. Also the LM7 runs out of steam up high, where the LQ4 pulls through. The most interesting thing here is that the LQ4 reaches 275 wheel Ft/Lb's at 60mph where the LM7 didn't make that until close to 80. Not sure the RPMs but thats got to be 1.5 maybe 2k rpms lower. Did the LM7 tester roll into the throttle, possibly. Point being the more displacement is able to produce its power earlier and in this case longer.

I know there are so many variable in dynocharts and cams n what not but what I am illustrating here is that the LQ4/9 is much better suited for hauling than the peaky LM7 or 5.3's. However there are other challenges with an LQ as stated above.

--------------------

As far as why diesels are preferred over gas for towing that comes down to the fact that modern turbo diesels can produce wicked amounts of torque at extremely low RPM's. They use to be more reliable than their gas counter parts due to the lack of many electrical components which they don't need.

However in today's world the reliability gap has considerably shrunk thanks to DEF, all of the emissions junk and on board computers combined with the improvements made to the gas engine.

 

[SmokingRocks]

I know nothing about the LM7 (or any other modern American V8) but the OP was more about, a bit of extra power and decent fuel mileage, also keep in mind the 80 will have the trailer on most of the time so he is not a racing driver. When you look at the votes the SUPERCHARGE or BIG ENGINE votes are possibly coming from more power hungry and perhaps (with respect) younger readers or older readers with spare funds to throw around?

I'm not a young racer anymore

I have put a lot of thought into this topic myself which is why I have added my 2 bucks.

To the OP;

If you can score a sweet deal on a 5.3 vortec, 6.0 vortec or LS then cheers! It will be an upgrade, and you will be happy. I am thinking along the lines of "if you are going to go down that road you might as well make sure your damn happy with the result" this makes me lean more into the bigger engine camp.

I know there are 6bt, 5.3, 6.0 and 2UZ-FE swapped into 80's running around my neck of the woods, I imagine there are some around you. Dig around and see if you can find them, make contact and ask if you can go for a ride with them. Thats the best way to figure this out.

 

[Dave 2000]

I'm not a young racer anymore

Oops......sorry pops

regards

Dave

 

[Onefastrx7turbo]

@SmokingRocks I did make an error, I got the numbers from here: 5.3L Bow Tie Builds Mild To Wild - Chevy LM7 Engines - Truckin Magazine

The 363hp was made with a 78MM throttle body change and a set of headers. Here is a paragraph from the article:

Before running any of the modified combinations on the engine dyno, we needed power numbers on a stock motor. The 160.000-mile 5.3-liter was installed on the engine dyno and run with a FAST XFI/XIM management system. The LM7 was run with a set of QTP headers, a manual Accufab throttle body (our wrecking yard motor was not supplied with a stock throttle body) and a Meziere electric water pump. In otherwise stock trim, the 5.3-liter produced 356 hp at 5,400 rpm and 378 lb-ft of torque at 4,300 rpm. Tuned for towing, torque production exceeded 360 lb-ft from 3,700 rpm to 5,100 rpm. Even down at 2,500 rpm, the little 5.3-liter pumped out 345 lb-ft. Is it any wonder the affordable and powerful 5.3-liter is fast becoming the swap engine of choice?