Best starter for the money today? (1 Viewer)

[apdxyk]

You make think this funny, but I understood when Bob gave the estimate today: You've got a good starter "it smell good".

this is called organoleptic testing and still could be found as a valid procedure in some standardized metrological procedures.

For example, you could try to take up sniffing various motor oils - you will see what I mean. A lot of the syn blend elixirs are gimmicks, they reek sulfur.. even more than some good, old mineral oils. PQIA stopped publishing the sulfur content numbers recently: it was too obvious that all the fake syn this, Polonium that is a marketing nonsense. Same goes for the ATF concoctions. The same ATF from different vendors will smell differently. [it may be a good things, when some extreme pressure lubricants are sulfur stinkers, though, e.g. gear oils have EP additives with funny odors]

So, your Old Master goes by experience and observation - a Method Man, Scientific Method that is

 

[2001LC]

Yep, he's had plenty of experience with starter/motor.

Also said brushes, bearing and gears all checked out, and will do some cleaning, resurface, replace the contacts and lube. He said keep my new parts, for the future if I want.

 

[corleykj]

That is great news. Keep us in the loop of the end product. Would he be willing to source some of the parts for those interested in rebuilding with more parts than just contacts?

 

[2001LC]

That is great news. Keep us in the loop of the end product. Would he be willing to source some of the parts for those interested in rebuilding with more parts than just contacts?

I'll ask the two best sources I found, and post up the info.

 

[2001LC]

Ok here's the story. I had three shop in the Denver area on my short list. One at #35 hour plus parts, a second $110 flat rate with access to parts and a third at $90 hour plus parts. BTW: I've since found an online sources for most parts Alternator Parts - Starter Parts & Repair kits. But not the seal kit or boot. Dealer wants $210.00 for boot ouch (comes with brush housing).

But Let me back up here and explain why I was looking for some to rebuild it for me, something I felt I could DIY.

While tearing down my starter, I messed up the head of a Philips screw that hold the gear box cover. Found seals and boot to be brittle. Thinking I'd like OEM parts even this screw, I realized I can't get, or at least not reasonable soon. The search for parts lead me to rebuilders'. I decide why not just have them do it the job for me. I'll have my factory starter and ready for the next 200k miles, by the weekend.

So I called my short list, the $90 was too pricey and only offered we do quality work, with out any detail of what that entails.

The $110 flat price I found a bad review online (unrelated to rebuilds), so was a little concerned here. Although he was referred by a shop I trust, that has done business with them for 25 years. In speaking with this one the owner said he has to access to parts. and would offering parts or rebuild local or through shippers. This guys been in same location forevery and handles many Denver fleet and shop needs. But I move on to third on my list, to see what they had to offer.

The $35 hour shop manager had some good stuff to say; He'd put the armature on a lathe too true the run out. Said they would clean, grease and replace parts as needed and had good access to Denso. First they would inspect and give me a free estimate. This one sound promising so I drop it off with him. In doing so I saw him handle the starter in such a way as to appear to break (he didn't realize he'd done this) the rear breath tube plastic catch hook. No big deal I thought, not say anything to him. I just felt so what, he'll find the breath tube issue if it is indeed broken, and put in his estimate a couple of $$ more.

I explain to him, how I needed to pull intake manifold so wanted get the starter rebuilt while in the area, as it's a PITA. That nothing was wrong with it but would like have it ready for the next 200k miles. I showed him the screw I messed up, which he said they'll just drill it out. I also said my concern is for parts I can't readily get, like seals, boot, bearings and brushes. He said not a problem they can get them.

Great off I went happy I 'd have a rebuild ready for the weekend, provided the estimated was reasonable. Well the next day I called to get the estimated and to my surprised the manager quote me only $65, wow. I gave him the go-ahead and said listen, if you can get me some picture of the rebuild proceed, I know a lot of fellow 100 enthusiast would be interested in seeing them. If you'd get me those pictures, I'll post them with your shop name so other can find you. He said sure that he had a very high end camera he'd use and get me some great short.

More to follow soon, I promise with pictures.

 

[apdxyk]

Was that a JIS or a real Philips screw? Just curious as to whether they use JIS on these? They look the same to an untrained eye

Vessel Megadora Impacta is a good tool for stubborn screws. Just an example..

Thank you for sharing your experience and thought process.

 

[2001LC]

Was that a JIS or a real Philips screw? Just curious as to whether they use JIS on these? They look the same to an untrained eye

Vessel Megadora Impacta is a good tool for stubborn screws. Just an example..

Thank you for sharing your experience and thought process.

It looks like normal Philips head to me, what do you think?

 

[apdxyk]

Looks like a Philips to me as well. No dimple there.

 

[2001LC]

I messed it up just a little, by using a driver just a bit too small, on what turns out to be very soft screw. It was this incident that got me to thinking, "where am I going to get any parts I may need quickly"

 

[2001LC]

I’ve edited the OP with rebuild info.

What is it they say; "If you want something done right, you have to do yourself" I did and will from now on, see opening post.

The follow is a bit of long story of my encounter with C & M Rebuilders & Bob Reed the manager of the shop (a real sweetheart of a guy)

Late last Friday headed cross town (30 mile trip) to pick up my rebuilt starter, just in time for weekend install. Thinking great, I'll have a professionally rebuilt starter, armature commutator lathe turned to true run-out, under-cut of commutator spec'd & decarbonized, gears cleaned & greased, and new contacts & plunger, seals, boot & vent tubes. My factory Denso should last for the next 200k miles.

I arrived at C & M Rebuilders Inc. http://northamericantrucktrailer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=50 where I was greeted by Bob Reed service manager, my only contacted with them. His attitude with me was different this time, calling me sir, being very formal and short. In a hurry to get on the road before Friday rush hour traffic. I handed Bob my credit card and a USB thumb drive for the pictures he had agreed to take of the rebuild. I had previously spoken to Bob about posting these pictures in mud, with C&M’s name, for those wishing to have starter rebuilt, like I. Which he was in favor of, and went on telling me about this great camera he’d use.

Bob said: "I don’t have the pictures. After speaking with my employer, we decided we not give you picture, as we aren't really interest retail customer business. We have plenty of work from fleet. We'll except walks in like you, but don't wanted to deal with long distance customers. You know if we have issue with them, it can get messy".

Self: “I really wanted the pictures Bob, but ok”.

While waiting for the credit card charge to go through, I notice a picture of an atomic blast with howitzer in foreground next to me. I also was aware of a no neck with arms of gorilla sitting/waiting partially hidden from view behind me, just within ear shot of us. Myself being someone that works-out regular at a health club, I’d say he was a steroid using body builder, a very big boy.

Self: “This is an interest picture of nuclear blast with a howitzer. (I’d notice at eye level next to me)

Bob: “It’s kind of a passion of my friend their & I”. (OK….. I’m thinking)

Self: “I noticed it Bob, as it was my mission while station in Germany if alert was sounded. That is to put a nuclear projectile in the howitzer tube and fire. Our life expectance was 20 minute, from time of alert".

Shortly after some more small talk, the charge went through and I was out the door.

The next morning eager put the LX back together; I started by making sure I was ready. Upon inspecting the starter, I noticed the vent tube of the gear box was a little wet around the edges. Wet with a clear oily fluid with no real smell, could it be a solvent? I then notice the screw I damaged, that lead me to using C&M Rebuilders in the first place was still in, but was damaged even more. I’m thinking; C&M (Bob) must have removed this gear box case screw somehow, without drilling it out as he said he would do. Otherwise he’d not be able to clean the gears & bearings.

Concerned, if he washed with solvent without cleaning gear box, I’d have a starter bound to fail. So I drilled it out. What I found pissed me off more than I can say. Now I knew why Bob didn’t give me pictures as promised, and had a change of attitude when I saw him last.

This SOB for some unknown reason basically sabotages my starter, and didn’t even say thank you as he stuck it to me. You’d not believe the lies upon lie Bob Reed the manager at C & M Rebuilders told, when I confronted him. I asked Bob did you clean my starter with a solvent? Yes, we use and "OSHA approved biodegradable, why do you ask" So you washed with a solvent but didn't open up the gear case? Bob, just plied lie upon lie.

I called him on everyone lie. Letting him know I have before and after pictures to prove it. I think what happen, is it just got late on a Friday, and the job wasn’t done. Rather than take the time, he washed it with solvent, cleaned off the contact & plunger with steel wood, put on a use mismatched torn boot and called it done. He started saying “come down and will talk in person” “it’s easy to talk on phone”. Acting like a high school kid tough guy. This was while I was still being polite. Now I know why he had a gorilla no neck sitting within ear shot, He had an agenda all along..

I am relentless, as few unlucky soles have found. I’m not in high school, nor do I punch, stab or shoot people any longer. Yes I'm sorry to say I have done those things as a young mad man. But I'm older and like to think wiser. I do know how to use the court system. The amount of $ makes no difference to me, when someone screw me. It just a matter of principle, it’s the way I am. I doubt he’d messed with me had he checked me out first, not difficult for a Denver native to do. But then he’s a transplant from out of State.

Bob, now says he going to refund my money. I really hope he doesn’t, I’m bored and need a mission.

What is it they say; "If you want something done right, you have to do yourself" I did and will from now on, see opening post.

 

[bctlex]

@2001LC Thank you for sharing, and paving the way. Man that really sucks to hear your story. I cant believe someone would just flat out lie like that.

I am following your thread here with great interest since my 98 has 214K with unknown history if the starter was ever replaced.

 

[2001LC]

My pleasure, hope it helps you and many others here in mud.

My next starter will be so easy with the experience I've gain. This one took awhile, just cleaning & conditioning alone was 80% of the job(s).

You may have seen I did a compression test, cleaned & swap out spark plug, had great experience with Chuck at FIS with Cleaning, Testing & Rebuilding all 8 fuel injectors, broken down and cleaned & resealed intake manifold and cleaned T-body. All just in getting to one little wire Mickey & Minnie decided to snack on.

Like I said I'm relentless when I sink my teeth in a mission, and a bit of an overkill kind of a fanatic (well maybe a big over-kill-er).

BTW Chuck at Fuel Injector Specialists - Home - Wheat Ridge, CO is offering a discount to those who mention "mud". I'll certainly use him again, and I'm not easily pleased with work others do for me (OCD possible).

 

[camino70]

I'm sorry 2001, but glad you checked before reinstallation. I'm also glad I'm not the only one that finds himself in this type of situation

 

[2001LC]

I felt like a fool, for not inspecting closely before walking out of the shop. But your right at least I didn't just install.

I did visit one other shop after this, for advise and parts. JC auto electric, which offers a flat $110 to rebuild starters. He was recommended by a local parts store I've used for turning flywheel, rotors and drums for years. They said JC did rebuild for CarQuest locally, before CQ was acquired by Advance. Turns out, JC does most fleets' alternator & starters in the Denver area. Nice helpfully guy, that wouldn't take my money when I offered it for some used parts he gave me.

But from now on, I'll just rebuild my own stuff whenever possible. Truthfully these shops would go out of business, taking the time and care we do.

 

[sean2202]

How did your rebuilt starter turn out. Thinking of rebuilding mine when I have intake off. What parts do you recommend replacing. Attached is the breakdown of my starter. What grease did you use? I did read somewhere of someone using a pigtail connector on starter contacts to jump if needed. What is your thoughts on that.

 

[PabloCruise]

Ok here's the story. I had three shop in the Denver area on my short list. One at #35 hour plus parts, a second $110 flat rate with access to parts and a third at $90 hour plus parts. BTW: I've since found an online sources for most parts Alternator Parts - Starter Parts & Repair kits. But not the seal kit or boot. Dealer wants $210.00 for boot ouch (comes with brush housing).

Thank you for the link! Did you ever find a seal kit or boot?

 

[PabloCruise]

BTW Chuck at Fuel Injector Specialists - Home - Wheat Ridge, CO is offering a discount to those who mention "mud". I'll certainly use him again, and I'm not easily pleased with work others do for me (OCD possible).

Thank you for this link as well, I was wondering how your injector rebuild turned out.

 

[PabloCruise]

I felt like a fool, for not inspecting closely before walking out of the shop. But your right at least I didn't just install.

I did visit one other shop after this, for advise and parts. JC auto electric, which offers a flat $110 to rebuild starters. He was recommended by a local parts store I've used for turning flywheel, rotors and drums for years. They said JC did rebuild for CarQuest locally, before CQ was acquired by Advance. Turns out, JC does most fleets' alternator & starters in the Denver area. Nice helpfully guy, that wouldn't take my money when I offered it for some used parts he gave me.

But from now on, I'll just rebuild my own stuff whenever possible. Truthfully these shops would go out of business, taking the time and care we do.

Last reply, I think I got some stuff for my 40, alternator and SS voltage regulator, from JC Auto Electric. If it is the same place I am thinking of they were great.

 

[2001LC]

Worked out great, once I just re-rebuilt myself. I followed FSM procedure to the letter, doing each test and procedure. The most important procedure is to clamp down contacts to firmly seat before torqueing down.

As you know, the starter sit in the engine valley which is a very hot environment, not idea for any electrical motor. This must be at least one of the reasons Toyota used such a heavy duty quality starter motor. So using anything but the OEM Denso would not be a good idea. New Denso is pricy, factory rebuilt is said to be as good as new, and rebuilding ones own is rewarding IMHO.

As it turns out Toyota Dealers have all parts needed. I replace the contacts, plunger, vent boots and seals. Bearing, gears and brushes were all in good working order. Most when rebuilding only replace plunger and contacts and call it a day.

The one part I didn't get was the boot which was very brittle. This only comes with part # 2820 (above), at least at the Dealer. That's like buying new shoes to replace a shoe lace. The boot protects from accidental shorting the main contact, but doesn't seal and can retain some moisture. About the only way a short would happen is if a metal tool fell under intake manifold into engine valley, and then made contact with hot wire/connector the boot is meant to covers. I just used an old boot JC auto electric rebuild shop in Denver found lying around and gave to me, not a perfect fit but workable. JC’s a good guy I would trust to do rebuild for me. But again no shop will take the time we can.

For grease in gear box, I used just what I had lying around. This was M1 synthetic wheel bearing & chassis #2 grease. Except for when cranking for a compression check or having trouble starting/cranking, the gears just turn for a moment while starting engine and then rest until next start. It is high pressure on gears for that moment, and the area is heated from radiated engine heat. So one could use high temp EP (Extreme Pressure) grease, but not a big deal.

The Philips screw head I damaged was very soft and easy to drill out. Damaging this was my fault for using a Philips screw driver that didn't fit as well as it should on soft metal.

Cleaning the carbon out of grove (undercut) of commutator with picks and emery cloth, I felt was a nice touch on my part. Along with turning commutator on my homemade lathe to clean and true-up (runout) where brushes ride. I learned the importance of cleaning commutator, when a Dewalt drill started smoking and lost usable power. I was ready to toss out the Dewalt, when I found just by cleaning carbon off and out of groves of commutator it worked fine again with great power.

I cleaned the unsealed bearing with solvent, water and high pressure air just as I do wheel bearings and then packed with grease. The sealed bearings I just wiped clean, not a good idea to soak those in solvent.

One tool I saw that I’d like for the next 100 series starter I pull is the Tite-Reach extension wrench Tite-Reach TR14-38-DIY Extension Wrench 3-Pack, 1/4" & 3/8" & DIY This would be hand for the two bolt securing the start to the engine.

Here a few more pic of turning commutator on my home made lathe.

 

[2001LC]

Thank you for this link as well, I was wondering how your injector rebuild turned out.

I was very happy with Fuel Injector Specialists - Home - Wheat Ridge, CO. When I get done recondition of the LX, I'm going too have them clean, test & rebuild the LC fuel injectors next. As stated in When to replace fuel injectors I've very detailed MPG record on the LC. If we find some marginal fuel injectors on it, I'll be able to do a very accurate MPG before & after replacement comparison.