Battle of the LT A/T (1 Viewer)

[Madtiger]

We can’t say what would be superior LT vs P because like much of tire racks reporting the tests are ads for their product.
They aren’t going about science.
If they wanted to discover the best LT tire in a real unbiased blind test over many surfaces and vehicles, they could. But then who would buy the tires that lost?
So they don’t run that kind of test.

Personally I trust my experience, then the anecdotes enthusiasts share on my truck, from direct experience, then tests which at least attempt to be balanced. Then winnow the rest for what is valuable and take it for what it is.

Huh???? Seriously, huh?!

Unbiased blind study? Are you kidding me?! This is not about testing a vaccine against COVID! Oh wait, Pfizer didn’t even do that!

Does Car & Driver do a blind comparison in their car comparisons? MotorTrend? Road & Track? FourWheeler?

What do you want them to do? Blindfold the drivers while they drive around a racetrack? Or wait, even better, cover all the tires up with big Walmart shopping bags…hey better cover up the tread too because the drivers will know which tire is which from tread pattern!! Or just be safe, blindfold everyone and cut their arms off too to prevent them from touching the tires!

In TireRack editor comparisons, THERE is a loser…in fact, in most tests, there are more than one loser!! TireRack tells you which tires they think is the best with PROs and CONs of each competitor!! They then tell you the RANKING of each competitor in any one test!!

So yeah, TR is doing EXACTLY what you wrote above! “Who would buy the tires that lost?” TireRack ranks the tires in the comparison dude!! WTH are you guys talking about?! Seriously!

What would happen if TR ran KO2 vs. the other highway-oriented P-metric tires over ALL surfaces like you want, including off-roading and testing sidewall strength? You think that KO2 would do worst than those P-metric tires?! Are you really reading what you type here???

Sure, trust your opinion…that’s valid…as long as your opinion is unbias and you did a blinded study on yourself!

Anecdotes? Anecdotes from some unknown person on internet? And you think that is UNBIAS?!! How many tire consumers praise their brand spanking new tire after exchanging their worn out noisy low traction tire? THAT is the very definition of bias anecdotes! Why do you think that there is such a thing as a “honeymoon“ period where everything is rosy?!

Sorry, what you wrote is utter nonsense.

 

[Madtiger]

The fact that you guys are arguing over "data" from a retailer is amazing. Take it from someone who works in online retail...retailer reviews are not a credible source to waste your time arguing over.

Your statement is fair, but unfortuantely, there is not any better data out there. There is not a Motor Tire…Tire & Driver…Road & Tire…or AutoTire magazines.

But like i said above, TireRack does rank the tires in the comparison from best to worst. And they only test tires that they sell. So…….according to you……that would mean that they would make (on the winner) and lose money (on the loser), right?

To be fair to TireRack, the winner in their many comparisons are not always the most expensive tire nor the newest tire on market. They often benchmark the new tires against an older gold standard. See where i am going with this?

And lets say that Michelin (as an example) sells to TireRack tires the cheapest…thus TR makes the most profit from selling Michelin tires to consumer…so one would expect TR editor comparisons to all favor Michelin, right? But TR editor comparisons do NOT favor any one brand if you look at all their tests done on various tires!

So, lets not let OUR bias get in the way of appropriately reading data from another source.

 

[Madtiger]

@TeCKis300

Since you ask, i don’t know which tire that i will going with next time around…because i don’t know what my FAMILY priorities be in the next year or two. I just got a 2nd car to drive daily…so my LC will be a garage weekend queen. So i will be able to hold off on replacing my KO2 with 38k miles on it for a long time i think. Will i be off-roading more or less? My daytime job requirements are getting more demanding. I see that i may be slowly getting out of off-roading and more into sand driving with our new home. Ha, and with gas prices, maybe a more fuel efficient tire is not a bad idea! (That is my biggest issue with KO2…the past 5k miles or so, fuel economy is tanking!)

 

[AnyMal]

Gotcha and that point is certainly arguable.

I'm about 7k miles into my Toyo's AT3s. 40k miles on Falken's. My opinion at this point performance wise is that Falken's had a small edge in aggressiveness, while keeping most all the road manners. That said, for the amount of commuting and long distance driving on-road, Toyos may still be the better tire for me.

From an aesthetic POV, treads, lugs, and side lugs, the Falken AT3Ws were easily more aggressive than the Toyo. KO2s are right up there with the most aggressive looking for an AT. None of that takes anything away from the Toyo's as I think they still look great.

It's not completely apples to apples as I ran a Falken in LT size. Toyo in Floatation. Floatation is supposedly the most aggressive flavor in each lineup.

Its a shame AT3W was developed w/ budget consideration and was heavier than needed. If all thats true anyway… i wont obsess over weight anymore but i still care to keep things relatively close to oem.

In regards to looks i cant get over integrated sidewall design of KO2 and similar builds. That is an MT design in an AT and i just cant find it elsewhere in that segment. There is something to be said about them in that i believe they are constructed in some special manner none of the others can claim. Like an A/T born out of an M/T mold. Wish i had more info but it’s something i cant ever unsee now.
That last part is really the crux of some of my issues with tire shopping. There is a lot of hidden and obscure info and lineup randomness thrown in.

Also weird that no tire retailers ever rank balancing effectiveness and hold duration. I dont know how they do all their reviews but i dont take them as gospel. IMO they need to test once at 5k miles and once again at like 20k. Testing new tires or tires over a short period isnt very reliable in my eyes. I find ATs specifically take a lot longer than 500 miles to break in, im sure others can agree. My C A/T3s are comfy at 38 now where i didnt want them above 36 before and have worn in nicely over the first 5k. Performance street tires definitely have not been that way for me. I did have to rebalance though but i cant truly know if that was hidden in the rear before the first rotation.

Of all things in content we really really are missing a full fledged tire review source. Direct visual comp of a single model variants, officially provided specs overview, background/company development and production info, long term testing, scientific wear data, balancing data, material analysis and so on. Tires are a big enough industry at this point.

 

[AnyMal]

Why would they rush? Look at BFG HISTORY of updating their AT?

Is KO2 behind anyone? Nope. KO2 remains the gold standard. TireRack confirms what I have been saying for a long time.

Its the tire rack part that i dont think i would take to the bank though. You know how these things tend to go tiger, youre not what i would call naive. There is always sketchy things when money is involved. But either way best case scenario i still have issues with the thoroughness of their tests per my other reply above.

 

[AnyMal]

So, like, not an apple to apple comparison? Confirmation bias is a seductive mistress.

That was my point too, the testing methodology is just not there. I want to hear from a tire reviewer not a retailer. Also, i wouldn’t look past favoritism specially for domestic brands.

We can’t say what would be superior LT vs P because like much of tire racks reporting the tests are ads for their product.
They aren’t going about science.
If they wanted to discover the best LT tire in a real unbiased blind test over many surfaces and vehicles, they could. But then who would buy the tires that lost?
So they don’t run that kind of test.

Personally I trust my experience, then the anecdotes enthusiasts share on my truck, from direct experience, then tests which at least attempt to be balanced. Then winnow the rest for what is valuable and take it for what it is.

Yes exactly. Also DT bought TR and merging into the biggest tire retailer of all time. This is far from independent data.

@Madtiger its not that were blind to the testing, its just that consumer data doesn't seem to support it.

 

[AnyMal]

Your statement is fair, but unfortuantely, there is not any better data out there. There is not a Motor Tire…Tire & Driver…Road & Tire…or AutoTire magazines.

But like i said above, TireRack does rank the tires in the comparison from best to worst. And they only test tires that they sell. So…….according to you……that would mean that they would make (on the winner) and lose money (on the loser), right?

To be fair to TireRack, the winner in their many comparisons are not always the most expensive tire nor the newest tire on market. They often benchmark the new tires against an older gold standard. See where i am going with this?

And lets say that Michelin (as an example) sells to TireRack tires the cheapest…thus TR makes the most profit from selling Michelin tires to consumer…so one would expect TR editor comparisons to all favor Michelin, right? But TR editor comparisons do NOT favor any one brand if you look at all their tests done on various tires!

So, lets not let OUR bias get in the way of appropriately reading data from another source.

For arguments sake i don’t disagree with a lot of what you’re saying in this and earlier. But after having said all that, all of the car reviewers since i was a kid have done shootouts. Like for like direct competitors shootouts. Why are tire rack throwing ko2 into a p lineup? Also if we want to be scientific we need other LTs tested to the same way to draw a conclusion. Not a blind study but a randomized trial? Lol.
Also we have to be skeptical here and wonder why those results would even be possible. KO2 is great but its not a miracle.

And the other thing is there hasnt there been 2 or three compound adjustments in the KO2? I feel like im in a double blind when shopping here as i commented before. Tire industry needs reform and transparency imo. Tire rack aint providing that by a long shot…

You have to keep in mind that even though consumer comments are anecdotal, its the total body of evidence we look at. When all the anecdotes tend to one direction you can lend some credibility to them. And the people writing their feedback aren’t always noobs. You know the type, we have em right here on MUD ;

“ I been ran tires 1 million miles in my family for 4 generations in the mountains on rock and ice through minefields on my way to work in mordor hauling lead slabs in my mad max diesel dually ”

 

[coleAK]

Geese people can we keep the back and forth of “your wrong” “no your wrong” “my decision is the best”, “no mine….” On where it apparently belongs on Facebook (which I am not on). Can we keep this mind set of if you don’t agree with me you are wrong off Mud.

Let’s be honest every tire discussed here is great and none are a bad decision. Some have slight different advantages to others. None are right and none are wrong.

 

[Madtiger]

For arguments sake i don’t disagree with a lot of what you’re saying in this and earlier. But after having said all that, all of the car reviewers since i was a kid have done shootouts. Like for like direct competitors shootouts. Why are tire rack throwing ko2 into a p lineup? Also if we want to be scientific we need other LTs tested to the same way to draw a conclusion. Not a blind study but a randomized trial? Lol.
Also we have to be skeptical here and wonder why those results would even be possible. KO2 is great but its not a miracle.

And the other thing is there hasnt there been 2 or three compound adjustments in the KO2? I feel like im in a double blind when shopping here as i commented before. Tire industry needs reform and transparency imo. Tire rack aint providing that by a long shot…

You have to keep in mind that even though consumer comments are anecdotal, its the total body of evidence we look at. When all the anecdotes tend to one direction you can lend some credibility to them. And the people writing their feedback aren’t always noobs. You know the type, we have em right here on MUD ;

“ I been ran tires 1 million miles in my family for 4 generations in the mountains on rock and ice through minefields on my way to work in mordor hauling lead slabs in my mad max diesel dually ”

But for them to throw in KO2 is a disadvantage to KO2, right?

TireRack did the test. You see the lap times. You see the breaking distance. And then you have subjective from the driver.

What is wrong with TireRack test? How different is that from Car & Driver or MotorTrend tests?

You have empirical data and you have driver’s impression. What else do you want?

 

[Idaho Savage]

But for them to throw in KO2 is a disadvantage to KO2, right?

TireRack did the test. You see the lap times. You see the breaking distance. And then you have subjective from the driver.

What is wrong with TireRack test? How different is that from Car & Driver or MotorTrend tests?

You have empirical data and you have driver’s impression. What else do you want?

You are a marketer's dream.

 

[Madtiger]

You are a marketer's dream.

Sure…i go where the data goes….

If you guys can show me where TireRack shows clear bias in their testing…or how they favor one brand over another, then show me. I will gladly admit that i am wrong in looking at TreRack.

Instead what i see are a few members not really understanding the test and come to some random conclusion. Quite odd. This reminds me of Toyota/Lexus fanboys yelling out loud at Car & Driver’s car comparisons and that C&D always favor BMW.…..until C&D rewarded Lexus the win…..then they all shut up and spam BMW forums with the C&D win!! LOL

 

[AnyMal]

Sure…i go where the data goes….

If you guys can show me where TireRack shows clear bias in their testing…or how they favor one brand over another, then show me. I will gladly admit that i am wrong in looking at TreRack.

Instead what i see are a few members not really understanding the test and come to some random conclusion. Quite odd. This reminds me of Toyota/Lexus fanboys yelling out loud at Car & Driver’s car comparisons and that C&D always favor BMW.…..until C&D rewarded Lexus the win…..then they all shut up and spam BMW forums with the C&D win!! LOL

Lol
BMW tried to become MB and just became Audi. Audi is def the new BMW though…
Good presence in the important segments, non obfuscated design where models can be distinguished from one another, pushing innovative bounds with solid e tron stuff early, decent and justifiable gap between performance variants and their base models. I dont know whats going on anymore and i dont read the mags, i watch YouTube all day long haha

 

[Madtiger]

Lol
BMW tried to become MB and just became Audi. Audi is def the new BMW though…
Good presence in the important segments, non obfuscated design where models can be distinguished from one another, pushing innovative bounds with solid e tron stuff early, decent and justifiable gap between performance variants and their base models. I dont know whats going on anymore and i dont read the mags, i watch YouTube all day long haha

Yeah, BMW has fallen so far…….and those huge nostrils now ranks second to the new Lexus LX in terms of monstrosity that should have never left the lab.

 

[bloc]

Yeah, BMW has fallen so far…….and those huge nostrils now ranks second to the new Lexus LX in terms of monstrosity that should have never left the lab.

And yet they sell the s*** out of both.

Reminds me of a tire….

 

[Madtiger]

And yet they sell the s*** out of both.

Reminds me of a tire….

Ha…well played!

 

[Supra Turbo]

 

[bubbaZR2]

Today I learned the BFG is made with vulcanized whale semen. The tread blocks are made of osprey talons and have built in air dams to reduce wind resistance. The sidewalls have lasers that extend for firing laser beams at the Legion of Doom. The bead is 100% depleted uranium.

 

[Idaho Savage]

Today I learned the BFG is made with vulcanized whale semen. The tread blocks are made of osprey talons and have built in air dams to reduce wind resistance. The sidewalls have lasers that extend for firing laser beams at the Legion of Doom. The bead is 100% depleted uranium.

You forgot about being individually blessed by the pope.

 

[DadWagon]

Landed on Falken, pleased so far.