Do you have technical proof that WS is not good fluid? It’s synthetic fluid made by Mobil1.
At what transmission temperature should I be concerned when towing
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gaijin
GOLD Star
Really? I would be very surprised if Toyota WS were made by Mobil 1. Can you cite a source for that info?
TIA
Mobil ™ ATF WS
Mobil ™ ATF WS is an exceptionally high performance lubricant that meets original equipment manufacturers' specifications for use in certain slip-controlled lock-up automatic transmissions.
www.exxonmobil.com
BobIsTheOilGuy has several threads on it too.
gaijin
GOLD Star
Mobil ™ ATF WS
Mobil ™ ATF WS is an exceptionally high performance lubricant that meets original equipment manufacturers' specifications for use in certain slip-controlled lock-up automatic transmissions.
BobIsTheOilGuy has several threads on it too.
All that tells me is that Mobil makes a product called "ATF WS" that they say:
Mobil ATF WS is designed to meet the service fill requirements for many Japanese designed vehicles, and is recommended for use in transmissions requiring fluids that meet JWS 3324 requirements. Please refer to the owners' manual for proper fluid requirements.
I think it is quite a stretch to assume that this is the product Toyota use as their OEM fill in our transmissions.
HTH
I agree, but depends on the towing vehicle, and the conditions. 4600 lbs at a 12% grade for an extended time can be quite rigorous.
I never said it was not good fluid. It is good fluid.
So as you asked: "technically" Mobil1 is a product, not the manufacturing company. Exxon Mobil is the company......Toyota does not rely solely on XOM to make their Toyota branded WS fluid..........which brings me to your other claim of "its a synthetic fluid":
PdsDetailsPage
Mobil ™ ATF WS is an exceptionally high performance lubricant that meets original equipment manufacturers' specifications for use in certain slip-controlled lock-up automatic transmissions.
Where in this publication does it state "synthetic"? It does not.
I was remarking on the screen shot of 253f temps at the torque convertor. This temp, although well below the flash point of WS, is not good, really for any fluid, but at those sustained temps, the additive package in factory WS will not last long, and more importantly, neither will the rubber seals.
WS is clearly a good fluid, but there are fluid out there that are "more durable" under those temps. Like Amsoil, HPL or even Valvoline Maxlife, which all WS rated fluids. Dexron 6, which is backward compatible with WS are, by spec, is a synthetic blend, for whatever American marketing allows something to be described as "synthetic", which is less than 10% man made materials BTW.
How are you defining “sustained”?I never said it was not good fluid. It is good fluid.
So as you asked: "technically" Mobil1 is a product, not the manufacturing company. Exxon Mobil is the company......Toyota does not rely solely on XOM to make their Toyota branded WS fluid..........which brings me to your other claim of "its a synthetic fluid":
PdsDetailsPage
Mobil ™ ATF WS is an exceptionally high performance lubricant that meets original equipment manufacturers' specifications for use in certain slip-controlled lock-up automatic transmissions.www.mobil.com
Where in this publication does it state "synthetic"? It does not.
I was remarking on the screen shot of 253f temps at the torque convertor. This temp, although well below the flash point of WS, is not good, really for any fluid, but at those sustained temps, the additive package in factory WS will not last long, and more importantly, neither will the rubber seals.
WS is clearly a good fluid, but there are fluid out there that are "more durable" under those temps. Like Amsoil, HPL or even Valvoline Maxlife, which all WS rated fluids. Dexron 6, which is backward compatible with WS are, by spec, is a synthetic blend, for whatever American marketing allows something to be described as "synthetic", which is less than 10% man made materials BTW.
It’s been my experience that you may see this temp often but not for long drawn out periods of time. In the 30k of ownership with 70% of those miles towing, I’ve seen 250° probably 20 times, possibly more. It’s always a slow build up so you know it’s coming and you can adjust your driving to accommodate it. I don’t start to worry until I see 245° and that just depends on where I’m at in that particular climb. If its a particularly long arduous climb or some slow nitwit is in front of my I’ll just pull off. Otherwise, I’ll proceed and might see 20-30 seconds above 250° but never more than 260°, then I’m over the climb and the temp falls rapidly.
Welcome to the boards. I agree it's approaching undesirable temps.
For context, I'm not advocating this as common or okay to regularly see temps this high and most won't when towing with the 200-series. This is an extreme case working at 15,620lbs combined, with 35s, on an extended grades, and I'm pushing her hard. The fact that she's holding up at all and not into the warning trip thresholds is impressive. 99.9% of the time, the tranny is sitting at or under 200 degrees. I also follow the severe fluid change intervals.
What is also incredible is that the engine temps barely budge and even at this level of work, foot to the floor for 10 minutes at a time, the coolant temps stay stable and under 203. Not many cooling systems will hold up to that kind of work.
To address the AT temps, I've added an aux aux tranny cooler.
DIY Aux Transmission Cooler
As the stock 200-series already has an aux tranny cooler, perhaps this is better described as installing an aux aux cooler. The stock cooler is solid. I imagine this is niche for the heaviest of rigs or those that do more aggressive off-road running that really loads up the torque converter...
forum.ih8mud.com
This is key. If these trannies were running at these high temps all the time, they would not last to long
Interesting, so in addition to the air to fluid cooler already there, nice
Thanks.
Sustained meaning for long periods of time. As in perhaps over a few minutes of climbing temps, to near flashpoint.
This is key. What we are looking at is two temps, one is the convertor, and the other the pan. Here, it looks like the pan is 29 degrees cooler than the TC. I would say that the pan temp takes quite a while to get here, especially at 45mph or so, do to the removal of heat in the radiator and aux cooler.....however....there will be a time, when thermal runaway takes effect, and the system can no longer remove the heat. At this time, tranny failure is immenent if not left unchecked or stopped. The hotter the tranny, the higher the oxidation of the fluid's additives, and so on. It is no different than any other transmission in any vehicle, there is no special wizardry to it. WS is a good fluid, but these vehicles, as robust as they are, are not without boundaries. Amsoil for instance, or Maxlife, have a much higher flashpoint than WS, which is a semi synthetic blend. They will resist oxidation longer, and therefor protect the tranny longer, was my point.
Sure. At temp 2 is the TC, as it sees intermittent heat quickly, especially when not in lockup. But the pan temp and really the ration between the two temps is really where the danger is. A near instantaneous heating of 30 degrees is nothing to shug off. I think it is good practice keeping the temps as low as possible, under 230, just for the overall life of the tranny seals, which is really what makes it all work.
This is because you are nearing the flash point of Toyota WS fluid, 328f. Flash of course is when the fluid starts to vaporize and become ignitable. This type of thinking is like jumping of a building, the ride is fine, the whole time, until you reach the ground. "bad" meaning it wont burn the truck to the ground, but they will be selling you a new tranny soon. Drive around at 270 for a few days and see how much they think it is OK. At the moment of flash temp, seals are destroyed.
Sure it get it. And I am sure that is the case, especially when the tranny is connected to a thermally opening bypass, that only lets fluid to the aux cooler at whatever temp.
Some on this thread seem to think that sustained temps or that level are just hunk dory, and as long as the warning light stays of, they are good. this is not the case, is my point.
bloc
SILVER Star
Most 200-series owners have no idea what their transmission temps are, they just drive them. Yes many are solely driven back and forth to soccer practice, but a good number are used to tow boats or campers or whatever else fits within the published specs.
And transmission failures are very rare.
And transmission failures are very rare.
Any reply @04UZJ100 ?I never said it was not good fluid. It is good fluid.
So as you asked: "technically" Mobil1 is a product, not the manufacturing company. Exxon Mobil is the company......Toyota does not rely solely on XOM to make their Toyota branded WS fluid..........which brings me to your other claim of "its a synthetic fluid":
PdsDetailsPage
Mobil ™ ATF WS is an exceptionally high performance lubricant that meets original equipment manufacturers' specifications for use in certain slip-controlled lock-up automatic transmissions.
Where in this publication does it state "synthetic"? It does not.
I was remarking on the screen shot of 253f temps at the torque convertor. This temp, although well below the flash point of WS, is not good, really for any fluid, but at those sustained temps, the additive package in factory WS will not last long, and more importantly, neither will the rubber seals.
WS is clearly a good fluid, but there are fluid out there that are "more durable" under those temps. Like Amsoil, HPL or even Valvoline Maxlife, which all WS rated fluids. Dexron 6, which is backward compatible with WS are, by spec, is a synthetic blend, for whatever American marketing allows something to be described as "synthetic", which is less than 10% man made materials BTW.
Looking for some guidance on a new to me 2013 LX with 93k miles. The LX has a great maintenance history with all fluids being changed regularly against the standard schedule. Since I'll be doing some towing (3,500lb boat or 2,500lb UTV w/ trailer), I want to get the differential fluids changed and the AT fluid flushed.
Overall, shifting is fine but it can be a bit slow to shift while cold and at lower speeds. Occasionally when up to temp, it does hit a bit harder between shifts but nothing alarming, just not as smooth as my 100 with the 5 speed. I'm currently seeing AT temps in the 180 to 195 range around town without towing. After looking through multiple threads on here, I see that that temp range is normal for 200's. My 100 with 230k miles on the original AT fluid would run in that range or a bit lower until I hit a deer last year. They put in a new OEM transmission cooler and did a full fluid exchange and then I was seeing temps in the 135 range. It would only go above 150 if I was towing the boat, and then it would still stay below 180.
The local Toyota dealership doesn't want to do it as it's a Lexus and the closest Lexus dealership (2 hours away) recommends not doing it as they think it might cause more issues. The Lexus dealership said they only recommend it if there's an issue and then they want to diagnose it.
Other than doing a drain and fill myself, what's the general consensus on full fluid changes when under 100k miles? I'm thinking that if my 230k mile LC can handle a fluid flush, why can't a 93k mile LX? Would there be any significant benefit by doing, or not doing, the full fluid change?
Overall, shifting is fine but it can be a bit slow to shift while cold and at lower speeds. Occasionally when up to temp, it does hit a bit harder between shifts but nothing alarming, just not as smooth as my 100 with the 5 speed. I'm currently seeing AT temps in the 180 to 195 range around town without towing. After looking through multiple threads on here, I see that that temp range is normal for 200's. My 100 with 230k miles on the original AT fluid would run in that range or a bit lower until I hit a deer last year. They put in a new OEM transmission cooler and did a full fluid exchange and then I was seeing temps in the 135 range. It would only go above 150 if I was towing the boat, and then it would still stay below 180.
The local Toyota dealership doesn't want to do it as it's a Lexus and the closest Lexus dealership (2 hours away) recommends not doing it as they think it might cause more issues. The Lexus dealership said they only recommend it if there's an issue and then they want to diagnose it.
Other than doing a drain and fill myself, what's the general consensus on full fluid changes when under 100k miles? I'm thinking that if my 230k mile LC can handle a fluid flush, why can't a 93k mile LX? Would there be any significant benefit by doing, or not doing, the full fluid change?
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I'm running a ScanGauge II so I'm not sure where it's pulling the temp from. I know that I tried all four "year 2010+" code options and only one would work. It's relatively stable so I'm assuming it's the pan temp but I could be wrong.
2013 LX with the 6 speed
2013 LX with the 6 speed
bloc
SILVER Star
First off your terminology may be a factor here. What you really want is a Fluid Exchange, not a flush. The latter can (but not always) mean a machine forcing fluid and maybe a solvent through the transmission to clean things out.
Second if you show the Toyota dealer that it is the same transmission (the AB60F) as installed in a tundra, or sequoia, perhaps they’d be more accommodating. Or to take that further, it’s the exact same Toyota part number as in a Landcruiser of the same year.
Third, if you have to do a fluid exchange yourself it isn’t very difficult. Around 100k is as far as I’d push the factory fill and you’ll definitely prefer the appearance of new fluid vs what comes out. I did my 200’s first fluid exchange at 105 and am very glad I did.
Thanks, that makes sense. I'll swing by the Toyota dealership and talk with them in person, it might go a bit better that way. If they still want to pass, I'll talk with the Lexus dealership to make sure we are on the same page with the terminology. My 100 had a fluid exchange performed, not a flush. I'll update my previous post.
I don't mind doing the simple drain the pan and refill with what came out myself but time isn't on my side lately. I'd prefer to just have the fluid exchange done at a dealership and go about my day.
bloc
SILVER Star
Yeah worth a shot. To be clear shops will usually still use a machine for a fluid exchange but the idea is there is no more force than the fluid coming out of the transmission, and only fresh fluid going in, nothing else.
If you do end up doing drain & fill just understand that you’ll need to do it a number of times to replace the majority of what’s in there. On our rigs the somewhat complicated method to set the level makes this pretty tedious. If you can find a pretty accurate way to measure what comes out and only replace that, and do your 4 or 5 drain & fills all in one day, you’ll only need to set the level at the end.
