Anyone put NOS on an 80? (1 Viewer)

[lagwagon]

The Audi motor was a 2.2l 5cyl DOHC. Stock cams. The only internal change was Carrillo rods. Big turbo and computer chip made all else happen. As for longevity, it still runs 5 years later and is mainly driven on the racetrack. Turbos can be tuned to come on low with no lag like the Safari turbo or create monster top end power with major lag on the bottom. Mazda RX7's from 93-95 had progressive dual turbos that had the best of both worlds.

 

[the shed guy]

[quote author=turbocruiser link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115579#msg115579 date=1078495569]
Back to the way that nitrous produces more power...I cut this from the NOS company website and wanted to share this with the group here and then as the group here some questions.

There are three points. First, nitrous oxide is comprised of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). When the nitrous oxide is heated to approximately 572° F (on compression stroke), it breaks down and release extra oxygen, However, it is not this oxygen alone which creates additional power, but the ability of this oxygen to burn more fuel. By burning more fuel, higher cylinder pressures are created and this is where most of the additional power is realized. Secondly, as pressurized nitrous oxide is injected into the intake manifold, it changes from a liquid to a gas (boils). This boiling affect reduces the temperature of the nitrous to a minus .127° F. This "cooling affect" in turn significantly reduces intake charge temperatures by approximately 60° - 75° F. This also helps create additional power. A general rule of thumb: For every 10° F reduction in intake charge temperature, a 1% increase in power will be realized.

Okay, so this seems simple but I have always heard that the MAIN power producing effect of the nitrous is to increase the cylinder compression ratio by essentially acting as an 'inert' gas that occupies much of the open volume of the compression chamber in the cylinder on compression stroke. I think the above mentions this here but again, I have heard that this effect is really why nitrous works, not so much the breaking down of the NOS into more oxygen. Just wondering what you all thought of this. Also wondering if NOS power, horse per horse is harder on an engine because of this sudden spike in compression ratios? Next, the point about every ten degree drop in the intake air temperature will produce 1% gain in power...how much would you all think the intercooler on the turbo system drops the temps by - I am sure alot less than NOS does - but, this cooling would be constant and not just while hitting the button so I'm thinking that the overall advantage regarding intake air temps would go to the intercooler? Lastly, does using nitrous really add more fuel to the combustion chamber? I am having a hard time figuring out that effect unless the volume of nitrous is injected before all the sensors that measure and meter the air-fuel quantities. Thanks for the thoughts.
[/quote]

Turbocruiser, read what you cut and pasted, read my last post, and dont read any more into how NOS works, and you have the correct details on NOS. It has NOTHING to do with compression.

Cdan, 8 psi, no intercooler, that thing must be getting HOT inlet temps, and losing power, especially with a parasitic supercharger.

I ran 10 psi with my turbo intercooled 4.5, which made 220kw [300hp] and 520nm [400 ft lbs] @ the rear wheels, that was with 3" exhaust, resinator [NO MUFFLER]and upped fuel pressure.

The motor is now in another 80,[person I sold mine to crashed it, Stormin Norman, if you have seen the vid, was my truck 2 months after I sold it to him] running lpg [propane] with 20 psi boost making 285 kw [380hp] at the wheels.

 

[cruiserdan]

[quote author=the shed guy [Aus/CAC] link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115884#msg115884 date=1078521940]

Cdan, 8 psi, no intercooler, that thing must be getting HOT inlet temps, and losing power, especially with a parasitic supercharger.
[/quote]

That's where the water/methanol injection comes into play.

It'll only hit 8 when I'm pulling hills with a trailer.

 

[the shed guy]

[quote author=yomama link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115659#msg115659 date=1078504624]
turbocruiser,

Installed in the ashtray? Pics?
As far as boost pressure goes, I am not sure what it is set at, what ever it was set at when it left MAF and I believe according to the MAF owner (s#!t forgot his name) 6.5psi this is the area that you should be in, but he did mention that a couple boys with money to spare (if engine blows) have increased boost to 10. for a turbo it will have allot higher compression ratio to handle the extra volume of air. That is why just a bit of boost and cooler air makes the turbo kick butt.
The 7th injector? I would assume you have the same Safari components that I do. In my instruction manual for assembly it mentioned installing an aux. injector and showed where to do it. If you look at that black piece that says Safari on it, the piece right before the throttle body you will notice a part sticking out. If you took that off and looked through the other direction you could see that this is infact where they planned on adding more fuel. I think you and I are the only petro turbo boys in this forum. I was on my own for awhile and didn't have anyone to help defend my turbo being the better choice then the SC. Slee did post once that he has installed both and found the turbo to be superior, no one has said anything since then. Everyone pretty much agrees with what Slee tells us as he says it like it is and he has had experience, so thanks for joining me!!

Yomama


[/quote]

You need a standard engine which has never had a head decked, or even touched to run 10 psi, and even then some wont do it on premium fuel.

You need to REDUCE the compression ratio to run big boost normally, and the intercooler is to bring down inlet air temps and make denser air [every 1 bar *14psi* makes 210 deg to compress]

The extra injector port on the plenum Safari supply, which is plugged off is for pre 94 models which needed a microfueller and extra injector to get enough fuel in to go with thr air. Post 94 [95 on] will run enough fuel with the injector and ecu standard.

Extra fuel on its own wont make more power unless you can get extra air in with it, so it burns the extra fuel, to make more power.

 

[the shed guy]

[quote author=cruiserdan link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115888#msg115888 date=1078522409]
That's where the water/methanol injection comes into play.

It'll only hit 8 when I'm pulling hills with a trailer.
[/quote]

The water turning to gas, being part oxygen, helps the combustion proccess, the meth = octane boost, you dont have the bottle mounted under the bonnet where it becomes hot do you?

 

[cruiserdan]

Currently yes. I'm using the washer jar. It is a compromise. I wanted to get the system up and running to see how it worked and I did not want to spend a lot of time working up a tank to find it didn't work.
What method did you use to up your fuel pressure? I still need to do that.

 

[the shed guy]

Put the bottle in the cab where the air con blows on it

And I ran a different fuel reg, [adjustable] a different fuel pump, and all braided fuel lines and aircraft fittings.

I mounted the new pump where the transfer pump goes on an 80 with sub tank, and ran all lines to here, so if I had an issue with one tank, instead of using the sub to main set up, I could swap the suction, and return lines and run of either tank. I also had a spare fuel pump, which was the transfer pump, used the original senders etc, but the pump i fitted would transfer the 50 lt sub in about 3-4 minutes,a nd still auto switch off, and not overfill the main etc.

 

[ppc]

These are all good questions.


[quote author=turbocruiser link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115579#msg115579 date=1078495569]

There are three points. First, nitrous oxide is comprised of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). When the nitrous oxide is heated to approximately 572° F (on compression stroke), it breaks down and release extra oxygen, However, it is not this oxygen alone which creates additional power, but the ability of this oxygen to burn more fuel. By burning more fuel, higher cylinder pressures are created and this is where most of the additional power is realized. Secondly, as pressurized nitrous oxide is injected into the intake manifold, it changes from a liquid to a gas (boils). This boiling affect reduces the temperature of the nitrous to a minus .127° F. This "cooling affect" in turn significantly reduces intake charge temperatures by approximately 60° - 75° F. This also helps create additional power. A general rule of thumb: For every 10° F reduction in intake charge temperature, a 1% increase in power will be realized.

[/quote]

This is all good information.


[quote author=turbocruiser link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115579#msg115579 date=1078495569]

Okay, so this seems simple but I have always heard that the MAIN power producing effect of the nitrous is to increase the cylinder compression ratio by essentially acting as an 'inert' gas that occupies much of the open volume of the compression chamber in the cylinder on compression stroke. I think the above mentions this here but again, I have heard that this effect is really why nitrous works, not so much the breaking down of the NOS into more oxygen. Just wondering what you all thought of this.

[/quote]

What you may have missed in the quote from the website “By burning more fuel, higher cylinder pressures are created” is speaking about, for lack of a better term, the pressure from the explosion of the burning fuel and not the compression of fuel, air, NO2 prior to ignition. The compression ratio is not changed significantly as most of the expansion and cooling occur before entering the combustion chamber.


[quote author=turbocruiser link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115579#msg115579 date=1078495569]

Also wondering if NOS power, horse per horse is harder on an engine because of this sudden spike in compression ratios?

[/quote]

You get a wide array of opinions on this. Power is power so there should be no differences when peaks occur, but the NO2 can change the power output by a higher percentage in a short interval as compared to forced induction which from my point of view can be harmful. You are still limiting power by the amount of available fuel. If you keep adding NO2 without more fuel you run the risk of running lean and higher temps which is not good.


[quote author=turbocruiser link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115579#msg115579 date=1078495569]

Next, the point about every ten degree drop in the intake air temperature will produce 1% gain in power...how much would you all think the intercooler on the turbo system drops the temps by - I am sure alot less than NOS does - but, this cooling would be constant and not just while hitting the button so I'm thinking that the overall advantage regarding intake air temps would go to the intercooler?

[/quote]

I read that good intercoolers can drop temps 50°F min and 100°F or more using special techniques such as ice baths etc in racing conditions. I would agree with your observation that the intercooler is fulltime cooling and would be better. I don’t think it is really fair to compare that aspect as your kind of talking of apples and oranges. The weakness of an intercooler is that the more restrictive it is the more you need to create higher boost at the turbo to compensate for the pressure loss in the intercooler and plumbing. This can easily be 2 or 3 PSI. The higher you pressurize the more heat you generate and it’s not linear.



[quote author=turbocruiser link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115579#msg115579 date=1078495569]

Lastly, does using nitrous really add more fuel to the combustion chamber?

[/quote]

No, only more oxygen.


[quote author=yomama link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115659#msg115659 date=1078504624]
turbocruiser,

Another reason the Cruiser can not go too much above that is because of the compression ratio. If you ever look at a vehicle that was designed for a turbo it will have allot higher compression ratio to handle the extra volume of air. That is why just a bit of boost and cooler air makes the turbo kick butt.

[/quote]

Actually the reverse of this is true. An engine designed to use forced induction has a lower compression ratio. As the boost level is raised there is more and more tendency for pre-ignition. Lower compression ratio’s counteract that. Adding forced induction after the fact is a tradeoff in that it costs to much to alter the compression ratio and is cheaper to reduce boost or to use other counter measures.

 

[the shed guy]

read that good intercoolers can drop temps 50°F min and 100°F or more using special techniques such as ice baths etc in racing conditions. I would agree with your observation that the intercooler is fulltime cooling and would be better. I don’t think it is really fair to compare that aspect as your kind of talking of apples and oranges. The weakness of an intercooler is that the more restrictive it is the more you need to create higher boost at the turbo to compensate for the pressure loss in the intercooler and plumbing. This can easily be 2 or 3 PSI. The higher you pressurize the more heat you generate and it’s not linear.

On a 4.5 turbo cruiser, the intercooler will be <1psi drop across it, less than half that even.

The inlet temps of 8-10 psi would be under load [why else are you making power but to use it ] inlet temps would be 120-200 deg C, on a normal day the intercooler would keep these below 60 deg C and ussually below 50 deg C

From what I saw with my intercooler pre and post intercooler, it was normally 1/3 to half max once the intercooler had done its job.

A supercharger with no intercooler, under load, and running more than 4-5 psi, is a hand grenade with the pin pulled, not if but when IMHO.

Water and meth injection would be a band aid for the detonation that the high inlet temps would cause. Good cooling system, good under bonnet air flow, cool aior pick up, and a good exhaust to help get heat away quickly would all be worth doing if a supercharger is what you desire.

The biggest problem is that to compress 6-8 psi as fasst as the engine needs it would take 20-40 hp, and if the supercharger helps the engine make 100 hp, you have lost 40 psi making boost, plus hp for every 10 deg F you have spiked the inlet temp, [15hp at load maybe] so your placing the engine under load, extreme inlet temps, and really only making half of what you would think with what is known as "parasitic power" where hp is "stolen" to make power.

 

[cruiserdan]

You are trying to ruin my afternoon, aren't you? :'(

 

[Landpimp]

how about NOS on a 55?

check out the sticker on the bumper

 

[turbocruiser]

[quote author=yomama link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg115659#msg115659 date=1078504624]
turbocruiser,

Installed in the ashtray? Pics?

I think you and I are the only petro turbo boys in this forum. I was on my own for awhile and didn't have anyone to help defend my turbo being the better choice then the SC. Slee did post once that he has installed both and found the turbo to be superior, no one has said anything since then. Everyone pretty much agrees with what Slee tells us as he says it like it is and he has had experience, so thanks for joining me!!

Yomama


[/quote]

Sure, I'll snap some shots tonight and post them. It is really cool and convenient to have it there especially cause I do not smoke cigarrettes. Yea, Slee knows his stuff so once he speaks, we listen.

 

[the shed guy]

You are trying to ruin my afternoon, aren't you? :'(

Not at all Cdan,
just trying to ensure you DONT have a bad afternoon, when you least need it, and that you understand the thermodynamics of what you have, and where it needs to operate to maintain longevity.

 

[the shed guy]

[quote author=turbocruiser link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg116011#msg116011 date=1078532598]
Yea, Slee knows his stuff so once he speaks, we listen.
[/quote]

He does things properly, and fixes peoples stuff that havent.

I helped organise a turbo kit afew years ago, which they fitted at Christo's for Nick Millers 80, which he took home with him, after he came and stayed with me, which i think was the first Slee's shop did.

Nicks was a pre 94 with extra injector and microfueller set up too from memory.

I think Nick is selling his truck shortly too.

I will tell you guys one thing re turbo/intercooler, once you ahve driven a turbo intercooled 4.5, you couldnt go back to a supercharger, chalk and cheese.

 

[cruiserdan]

[quote author=the shed guy [Aus/CAC] link=board=2;threadid=12483;start=msg116017#msg116017 date=1078533330]
I will tell you guys one thing re turbo/intercooler, once you ahve driven a turbo intercooled 4.5, you couldnt go back to a supercharger, chalk and cheese.
[/quote]

Oh, now yer killin' me here. 8)

Turbo would be fine if you selfish so-and-so's would make a few

 

[the shed guy]

I have been hassling the manufacturer about this here, and currently have a kit available, that I could use to make a similar unit, if I wished.

There seems to be more demand for the kits today, than when the 80 was new.

 

[e9999]

dang, how come the guys down under know so much while standing on their heads all day (or is it the other way around?)
E

 

[turbocruiser]

As promised, for those who wanted to see them, I am going to try to post a pic of the turbo timer installed in the ashtray. Not really sure how to post a pic ...

 

[turbocruiser]

Well folks, having a hard time trying to post the pic. I think the attachment is too large (it is 200kb) but I do not know how to shrink it to within the 90kb that is set for attachments. Sorry for such a stupid question. If someone will send me a PM with some pointers, I'll post the pics. Sorry! :-[

 

[ppc]

Turboc..

When taking a picture from your digital camera the image is not compressed. Open the photo with the default program and then re-save it. Most image editing programs allow you to do a "save as" and have an option to specify the "compression ratio" under the advanced options. Set it to 30% and most images will fall under the 90KB threshold and still provide good detail. If you are using Windows XP the "PowerToys" download has a tool to allow resizing JPG's with a click of the right mouse key from file explorer to any resolution you desire with a resulting small file size. To post to this forum don’t preview first, that doesn’t work, just post.