Anyone ever installed bigger injectors?

[Gassiper]

No long range tank. I think mine was just built on the right day! Had absolutely no engine modifications before the injectors other than a drop in k&n filter. Its even got an IronMan lift on it. But before I was getting 320-330 miles per tank

Still has factory size tires running 40lbs.
Still has factory exhaust.
And I normally just run 87 octane. Filled up with 93 today and will the next couple tanks to see if it’ll make a difference.

 

[TheForger]

Sheesh....$100 just in shipping aloneSo the question becomes, is it worth the $400??

 

[suprarx7nut]

FYI to folks here, I talked with Keith this afternoon. Super nice guy. We're going to see if we can work out some sort of testing. I need to get some dyno runs on my Supra soon and may be able to combine it with some Cruiser runs before and after the injectors. I just need to find a dyno shop willing to collect and export the data log. It also occurred to me while talking with Keith that doing dyno runs on an auto can be tricky as you have to maintain a given gear through the RPM range. Cake on a manual - not so much on an auto. Hopefully partial throttle would keep it in 3rd (OD off) and that would be all that's needed.

I plan to plot a 3D scatter plot showing RPM and throttle on the horizontal axes with power or torque on the vertical axis. I'd then want to color code the data points by fuel flow rate. I think with a handful of runs and some statistics you'd see where the differences exist.

 

[krice118]

Awesome @suprarx7nut thanks for your help with this.

@dirtydeeds thanks for being apart of this thread and your openness to all our questions.

I’m excited to see where this goes.

 

[TheForger]

X2 THANK YOU @suprarx7nut!! Can’t wait to see the scatter plot, and I’m curious to see if this is a possible performance upgrade for our series!

 

[krice118]

I am hoping that this upgrade paired with Cruiser Outfitters 10% underdrive High range gears will add some pep back to the old 100.

 

[jerryb]

Sheesh....$100 just in shipping aloneSo the question becomes, is it worth the $400??

are you saying he's charging $100 for shipping 8 injectors?

 

[krice118]

Here is what the website says:

Could be a mistake or something bc it gives tou the Calc shipping option. Im sure @dirtydeeds will chime in.

 

[jerryb]

I can't believe it. There's no way I'd pay that. There are other options.

 

[Battleship]

I think with a handful of runs and some statistics you'd see where the differences exist.

Offer stands to defray some of the dyno costs. I’m curious about this. How hard is it to change injectors?

 

[Gassiper]

took about an hour and a half? driver side had a few more things to get out of the way so it took the most time. all it took was a 10mm, a 12mm, I think a 17mm and an extension

 

[2001LC]

Interesting thread. Atomization is one of the keys to performance, smooth idle and good MPG.

Above I see fuel MPG based on when the gas light comes on, Not a very reliable indicator. MPG should be based on miles driven vs gal of gas used over a longer period than one tank. Also OAT (outside air temp), wind, traffic, etc. will affect MPG. Even old rusty needle FPR (fuel pressure regulator) will change with variations in OAT. Additional not only driving style, but all lights and fans use must be the same.

Chuck at FIS (you'll find link to him within) has long held that better atomization improves MPG. It only makes sense a small gain in perform (power curve) would also be gained. But I'm of the opinion that Toyota would have jump on 6, 8 or 12 hole in a NY minute, if it gave any benefit to MPG. Why wouldn't they?

But to make this test a fair one the factory injectors should first (before dyno) be serviced (cleaned, rebuilt & tested) as should new 12 holes (sometimes new (except Denso) are plugged). All other things need to remain the same i.e. FPR, vacuum lines, air filter, oil, OAT, spark plugs, coils, O2's, A/F, MAF, etc. Additional injector should be swapped at at Dyno station (not driven to and from). Fuel use should also be monitored very closely.

I understand ASNU - Fuel Injector Diagnostic, Testing, Servicing and Cleaning has some good info on injector testing.

The 12 hole injector at only $37.50 each is cheap, too cheap. Authentic Denso are two to three times that. My guess is these are chinese made. Even Standard of USA Denso (see below) are ~$35 (retail) and then you'd have equipment, time and materials to modify to 12 hole.

We bought a set of Standards (4 hole) last year and they look the same as Denso except they have a blue ring at top.

These are Standards.

I'm very interested in the test result

 

[SICARIO]

I found a local shop that will do Dyno tests for $100 ea. So, just need to justify $200 for before/after tests.

Looks like the local Dyno shop can't export data. It will only output power and torque at rpm level, along with an air fuel ratio graph

 

[gatormark91]

Interesting thread. Atomization is one of the keys to performance, smooth idle and good MPG.

Above I see fuel MPG based on when the gas light comes on, Not a very reliable indicator. MPG should be based on miles driven vs gal of gas used over a longer period than one tank. Also OAT (outside air temp), wind, traffic, etc. will affect MPG. Even old rusty needle FPR (fuel pressure regulator) will change with variations in OAT. Additional not only driving style, but all lights and fans use must be the same.

Chuck at FIS (you'll find link to him within) has long held that better atomization improves MPG. It only makes sense a small gain in perform (power curve) would also be gained. But I'm of the opinion that Toyota would have jump on 6, 8 or 12 hole in a NY minute, if it gave any benefit to MPG. Why wouldn't they?

But to make this test a fair one the factory injectors should first (before dyno) be serviced (cleaned, rebuilt & tested) as should new 12 holes (sometimes new (except Denso) are plugged). All other things need to remain the same i.e. FPR, vacuum lines, air filter, oil, OAT, spark plugs, coils, O2's, A/F, MAF, etc. Additional injector should be swapped at at Dyno station (not driven to and from). Fuel use should also be monitored very closely.

I understand ASNU - Fuel Injector Diagnostic, Testing, Servicing and Cleaning has some good info on injector testing.

The 12 hole injector at only $37.50 each is cheap, too cheap. Authentic Denso are two to three times that. My guess is these are chinese made. Even Standard of USA Denso (see below) are ~$35 (retail) and then you'd have equipment, time and materials to modify to 12 hole.

We bought a set of Standards (4 hole) last year and they look the same as Denso except they have a blue ring at top.
View attachment 1747057 View attachment 1747055 These are Standards.
View attachment 1747056

I'm very interested in the test result

MPG needs to be averaged over time to cover the variables, IMHO. One tank of gas does not indicate anything, statistically.

 

[lt1fire]

sub'd

 

[jerryb]

Paying $50 for a rebuilt injector is a scam, period. But if people are willing, then why not.

 

[ton504]

So yall telling me my afr sensors/ecu aren't doing their job to achieve a stoichiometric mixture?

 

[Sam Lin]

No, your mixture doesn't change if you have no injector or a 200-hole injector. What does change is how that mixture combusts. Getting combustion to be more complete during the engine's actual power cycle is how this mod can improve efficiency and output.

 

[suprarx7nut]

So yall telling me my afr sensors/ecu aren't doing their job to achieve a stoichiometric mixture?

That was my initial thought. However...

No, your mixture doesn't change if you have no injector or a 200-hole injector. What does change is how that mixture combusts. Getting combustion to be more complete during the engine's actual power cycle is how this mod can improve efficiency and output.

This is really the only way this mod makes sense. The O2 sensor will help the ECU find stoich, but how much fuel it takes to get there at any given RPM/VE/Load is up to the combustion process. If the atomization makes a significant difference I could see in theory, at least, how the upgraded injectors would yield better partial throttle performance when the air flow doesn't create enough turbulence to mix the air/fuel mixture well enough on its own.


NEW THOUGHT. Dyno raw data seems hard to come by. Shops are either unaware or unwilling to export raw data, despite youtube videos walking you through it. For partial throttle tuning another option is OBD-2 datalogs taken while street driving. You could measure load, throttle position, RPM and fuel flow (injector duty cycle, flow rates, etc...). Perhaps simple OBD-2 datalogs would achieve what we need here? All without paying $150/hour to use a shop dyno that may or may not have the competence to export raw data.

Anyone have any feelings on OBD vs Dyno?

 

[gungriffin]

That was my initial thought. However...


This is really the only way this mod makes sense. The O2 sensor will help the ECU find stoich, but how much fuel it takes to get there at any given RPM/VE/Load is up to the combustion process. If the atomization makes a significant difference I could see in theory, at least, how the upgraded injectors would yield better partial throttle performance when the air flow doesn't create enough turbulence to mix the air/fuel mixture well enough on its own.


NEW THOUGHT. Dyno raw data seems hard to come by. Shops are either unaware or unwilling to export raw data, despite youtube videos walking you through it. For partial throttle tuning another option is OBD-2 datalogs taken while street driving. You could measure load, throttle position, RPM and fuel flow (injector duty cycle, flow rates, etc...). Perhaps simple OBD-2 datalogs would achieve what we need here? All without paying $150/hour to use a shop dyno that may or may not have the competence to export raw data.

Anyone have any feelings on OBD vs Dyno?

.... A bit less reliable, but you could also do 4-6 0-60 (or better yet, 0-80) runs in as controlled a manner as possible. This would certainly show if there was a difference. I have a VBOX sport if someone in Denver wants to try this.

My other question and thought is this. How much less time/mileage will these injectors last before they are no longer properly atomizing and you now just have 12 fuel streams vs 4? I could see a highly reduced service interval being a reason why Toyota didn't use a part like this stock.