Any Cummins R2.8L diesel repowers? (2 Viewers)

[mudgudgeon]

First, I should say that I don't know anything about diesels-- but I have been wondering when someone was going to put a 3.0L Duramax into an 80 series. Straight six, crazy power, crazy gas mileage. Seems like that would be a win win win.

I know they have some sort of oil pump belt that needs to be changed every couple hundred thousand miles, and people don't like that. And who knows what kind of computer they require. But everything else sounds like it would be awesome. The original version was called an LM2, but the new ones are called LZO. I am not sure what the difference is.


View attachment 3425774View attachment 3425775View attachment 3425776.

The difference is in the torque curve.

1HDxx engines, peak torque is at 1600rpm
The Duramax is 2750RPM.

That makes a huge amount of difference in drive ability. The heavier the vehicle, the more that will be felt.

Basic tuning, exhaust, turbo mods week get the same numbers, but 1000rpm or more lower in the rev range. This is what diesels are good at.
A landcruiser with a 1HDxx 4.2litre diesel will climb a brick wall at not much more than idle. Give it a tune, It'll also get you off the mark fast. Faster than people give them credit for.

 

[mudgudgeon]

People are pretty focused on catastrophic failure and part’s availability. Any catastrophic failure in an engine remotely is going to be an issue and Probabaly a large downtime.

What parts are we talking outside of maintenance that you would need right away?

Alternators?
Belts?
Water pumps?


I actually starting carrying a spare alternator in our 7.3 excursion as it literally would fail 1-2 times a year. 15min fix but annoying as all getout.

My point in a nutshell.

 

[6806goats]

First, I should say that I don't know anything about diesels-- but I have been wondering when someone was going to put a 3.0L Duramax into an 80 series. Straight six, crazy power, crazy gas mileage. Seems like that would be a win win win.

I know they have some sort of oil pump belt that needs to be changed every couple hundred thousand miles, and people don't like that. And who knows what kind of computer they require. But everything else sounds like it would be awesome. The original version was called an LM2, but the new ones are called LZO. I am not sure what the difference is.

Hoping for a crate engine but with the EPA doing it's thing it would be very difficult to sell this thing. They might have some options, wait and see or hold for a used engine. Trying to find engine graphs for the LZ0 but so far just finding LM2 specs. It hits 460 ft-lbs at 1500, the LZ0 goes up to 495 at 2,750 rpm. Not sure if torque numbers start at 460@1500 and go up from there but it's probably likely. Not likely it would go down.

"Another durability improvement is with pistons. The previous-generation LM2 engines used aluminum pistons. The new LZ0 uses smaller steel pistons. Why smaller? GM diesel engineer John Barta told Pickup Truck SUV Talk the change adds a longer stroke while maintaining the 3.0-liter displacement. "New 2023 GM Duramax 3.0 Diesel Engine: Is It Really Improved? - https://www.motorbiscuit.com/new-2023-gm-duramax-diesel-engine-improved/

3.0 Duramax LM2 & LZ0 Engine Specs, Info, History

3.0L Duramax LM2 and LZ0 engine specs, horsepower/torque curves, fuel economy ratings, design features, and general engine information. The 3.0L Duramax LM2 and later LZ0 are a series of inline 6 cylinder turbodiesel engines found in various Chevrolet and GMC applications, including the GMC...

www.dieselhub.com

 

[6806goats]

The big benefit of the LM2 was you could hit the maximum torque of 460 pound-feet at 1,500 RPMs. Hitting the torque at such a low RPM is what gives you the “throw you back in the seat” feel. Though Barta says the new LZ0 has a longer torque curve, reaching 490 pound-feet at 2,750 RPMs, you still get the 460 pound-feet at 1,500 RPMs. Basically, you still get the whiplash effect but also more power when passing and towing.

Exclusive: New 3.0L LZ0 Duramax Diesel fixes long-crank issue, extends belt life

Taking a deep dive into the General Motors LZ0 Duramax Diesel engine with John Barta, Chevrolet assistant engineer for diesel engines.

pickuptrucktalk.com

 

[josephpampliega]

I am in the process of doing hopefully a 500HP+ mechanically injected Mercedes Benz OM606 Turbo Diesel swap into my 80 Series just curious what transmission controller are you all using for your A343F/A442F that left it in place?

At first I was thinking to use the 6L80E because of its low first gear but I just don't trust its reliability, what more I feel bad that the motor isn't Toyota anymore but the OM606 is the best application I can find that is lightweight, with no electronics, and proven longevity. Regardless I already have the A343F/A442F adapters made along with motor mounts to OM606.

Thanks for any guidance.

 

[JoeCova]

I am in the process of doing hopefully a 500HP+ mechanically injected Mercedes Benz OM606 Turbo Diesel swap into my 80 Series just curious what transmission controller are you all using for your A343F/A442F that left it in place?

At first I was thinking to use the 6L80E because of its low first gear but I just don't trust its reliability, what more I feel bad that the motor isn't Toyota anymore but the OM606 is the best application I can find that is lightweight, with no electronics, and proven longevity. Regardless I already have the A343F/A442F adapters made along with motor mounts to OM606.

Thanks for any guidance.

You question the reliability of a 6L80E yet think you’ll get 500+ out of the OM606? Lol

 

[josephpampliega]

You question the reliability of a 6L80E yet think you’ll get 500+ out Al

You question the reliability of a 6L80E yet think you’ll get 500+ out of the OM606? Lol

All day long!

 

[PIP]

I am in the process of doing hopefully a 500HP+ mechanically injected Mercedes Benz OM606 Turbo Diesel swap into my 80 Series just curious what transmission controller are you all using for your A343F/A442F that left it in place?

At first I was thinking to use the 6L80E because of its low first gear but I just don't trust its reliability, what more I feel bad that the motor isn't Toyota anymore but the OM606 is the best application I can find that is lightweight, with no electronics, and proven longevity. Regardless I already have the A343F/A442F adapters made along with motor mounts to OM606.

Thanks for any guidance.

Ever driven a 500+ HP 3L mechanical diesel?

This sounds like a very educational and expensive project.

 

[josephpampliega]

Ever driven a 500+ HP 3L mechanical diesel?

This sounds like a very educational and expensive project.

All in I don't even think I will spend 15K. Problem is sourcing the parts, especially the rear sump oil pan/pump that comes from OM648, worse case they are everywhere overseas.

On hand I already have the motor, A343F/A442F transmission adapter kit, and motor mount adapters.

Just waiting on rear sump oil pan/pump , re-worked mechanical injection pump, hybrid quick spool turbo, and intercooler. Optionally I will get the billet intake and exhaust manifold if it eases installation.

If anything I just got to decide on transmission controller. I heard I can use the A442F since TCU is separate from engine ECU but I don't know. At least there are 2 controllers available for the A343F.

Great thing about the OM606 is that it is only 475lbs and small, same 5000RPM redline as 1FZFE but peak torque starts 1600RPM (stock), short overall height and rear sump oil pan/pump option (no need to lift vehicle excessively), plus no need to upgrade internals up to 700HP.

I saw others have already put the OM606 on their 80 just not mechanically injected and also more of a budget build.

Most important to me is these are all over the world, many with 500K+ mile examples. When I was looking at 6L80E option and reading on lifespan I couldn't get over people talking about have to rebuild or repair at 100K miles, my A343F has 466K miles untouched, just maintenance. I would prefer a manual H151 but can't locate an adapter.

As this will be an expedition rock landing vehicle I am trying to get away from electronics as much as possible.

Really I just need 300HP but since 500HP+ doesn't cost much extra or use anymore fuel why not.

 

[PIP]

Really I just need 300HP but since 500HP+ doesn't cost much extra or use anymore fuel why not.

Because it will be beyond terrible to actually drive.

This sounds like a first swap and a first time high hp engine build for you.

I cant say I share your enthusiasm for your build because there's nothing I hate driving more than a little engine using a huge turbo to move a large vehicle, but what I like has no bearing on what you do with your time and money.

If I can make one small suggestion it will be to install the engine in stock form and drive it that way first so you have a drive ability baseline. Going wild with turbo and fuel out of the gate is the fast way to waste a lot of money on a pointless vehicle.

 

[josephpampliega]

Because it will be beyond terrible to actually drive.

This sounds like a first swap and a first time high hp engine build for you.

I cant say I share your enthusiasm for your build because there's nothing I hate driving more than a little engine using a huge turbo to move a large vehicle, but what I like has no bearing on what you do with your time and money.

If I can make one small suggestion it will be to install the engine in stock form and drive it that way first so you have a drive ability baseline. Going wild with turbo and fuel out of the gate is the fast way to waste a lot of money on a pointless vehicle.

I totally agree and yes this is my first time swapping a diesel motor inplace.

When I inquired about the application, low end torque, drivability, and fuel consumption was my main concern, that's where the 500HP limit came especially with a single turbo and automatic. I am just doing what has already been done with many Nissan Patrol, Land Rover Defenders, Jeep Wranglers that have been OM606 swapped plus the tuned G-Wagens. I was concerned about responsiveness/lag but he said the quickspool valve and hybrid turbo makes up for it.

Hopefully it's what I am expecting as I can't afford a compund turbo setup as too much custom manifolding work will be required. Worse case I will downsize the turbo and exchange injection pump elements. I am far into the project already.

If it can feel like my Sprinter Van I will be so happy, but definitely more power helps for the hills and overtaking.

If this works out I will post the details, if it doesn't at least I tried. A diesel 80 is my dream rig.

I have a couple motors on hand, I will also build another 80 just using stock turbo/inejcion pump for comparison for those that are curious.

 

[PIP]

How much torque does your 606 make without a turbo? Because most of the time your engine will be operating below your turbos compressor efficiency range.

Do you follow that a turbo to make 500hp on a 3.0l engine will make zero boost below 2500ish rpm?

What base timing do you need to run to hit your horsepower goal? How will that timing further effect your low end torque and turbo spooling?

Making big hp from a small engine is no problem. Making big hp from a small engine while maintaining driveability is the problem.

You don't get your cake and to eat it too.

I don't care what YouTube captain om606 hypetard says. He's leaving out the really bad stuff like How your accelerator pedal will be an on-off switch once you get past about 1hp/cubic inch.

 

[josephpampliega]

How much torque does your 606 make without a turbo?

Do you follow that a turbo to make 500hp on a 3.0l engine will make zero boost below 2500ish rpm?

What base timing do you need to run to hit your horsepower goal? How will that timing further effect your low end torque and turbo spooling?

Making big hp from a small engine is no problem. Making big hp from a small engine while maintaining driveability is the problem.

You don't get your cake and to eat it too.

I don't care what YouTube captain om606 hypetard says. He's leaving out the really bad stuff like How your accelerator pedal will be an on-off switch once you get past about 1hp/cubic inch.

All that I don't know, only that the NA version is155lbs ft at 2200RPM and turbo version is 243lbs ft at 1600RPM both redlines at 5000RPMs. Compression Ratio is 25:1 NA and 22:1 turbo, pretty high for a diesel.

Before I keep going, I just wanted to mention it's great that we go back and forth, wish the rest of country would agree to disagree, and take in constructive criticsm with out being offended, that is how we learn and evolve. I don't want to be offending anybody.

For my due diligence I spoke to 4 different OM606 tuners and they pretty much said the same thing, that I need to stop thinking the OM606 is a diesel but to expect power curve like a gas but flatter. They said try to find another over squared diesel, this has a bore of 87mm and stroke of 84mm. This will run high RPMs continously as they are made for autobahn. Even when driving the vehicle it came from 70MPH is like 2600RPMs, whatmore at 140MPH.

They said most important is to gear as it is still a gas motor as it revs to 5000RPM redline (stock) , so basically I am starting off with my 4.88s on 37s.

They did also note, as I think you are saying that depending on turbo the power curve will shift up or down, but they said try suggested first. Also, If still not satisfied gear up to make up for low-end or raise stall speed of converter. Otherwise choose smaller turbo and injection pump elements.

One thing you noted is the throttle sensitivity, from what I have read amongst the different pump elements available they have been revised many time throughout the years. They got it to the point where injection duration is as short as possible at intended timing supply needed fuel. Anymore more refinement to throttle map requires putting back the electronic injection pump.

These high powered modded OM606s are nothing new, just have been further refined. Production of motors were from early to late 90s.

I am basically trying to come out with a balance of fuel economy and power for my appliacation. Just like when I order a truck/van, the applications guy always ask how much load and what speed will I primarily travel. He always says if heavily loaded go bigger displacement as engine with consume less fuel at high load because it runs at lower RPM with lower friction but the expense is at low load it will consume more fuel just to keep it idling. Opposite of that is with smaller displacement same vehicle, at high loads it will have to run at higher RPM with more friction therefore needing more fuel to sustain load but at low loads it can run at lower RPMs with sufficient power without needing as much fuel to sustain load. My thought is with the LC80 at least with the smaller displacement I can have high power when needed but then again I accept the increased consumption as it is only temporary when I need as in passing or hill climbing.

We'll anyways, many ways for similar outcomes. Hopefully it works out and becomes another alternative currently cheap swap. These motors are getting more expensive as time passes 3-years ago you can get them for only $1200. Now expect $3500 plus.

Once again if anybody knows of other transmission controllers other than Compushift or Microsquirt please mention.

 

[mjosoba]

I am in the process of doing hopefully a 500HP+ mechanically injected Mercedes Benz OM606 Turbo Diesel swap into my 80 Series just curious what transmission controller are you all using for your A343F/A442F that left it in place?

At first I was thinking to use the 6L80E because of its low first gear but I just don't trust its reliability, what more I feel bad that the motor isn't Toyota anymore but the OM606 is the best application I can find that is lightweight, with no electronics, and proven longevity. Regardless I already have the A343F/A442F adapters made along with motor mounts to OM606.

Thanks for any guidance.

You’ll want to look at compushift. I know they make a controller for both of those transmissions.

 

[josephpampliega]

You’ll want to look at compushift. I know they make a controller for both of those transmissions.

Thanks I was leaning towards that but they don't respond to their online inquiries. I will just try to call them instead.

 

[JoeCova]

All day long!

I didn’t say it couldn’t be done. The difference is making it reliable and drivable. Good luck. Haha

 

[josephpampliega]

I didn’t say it couldn’t be done. The difference is making it reliable and drivable. Good luck. Haha

Thanks, definitely need it. My brother and cousin will be doing the same and I talked them into it. Another concern is making it emissions legal, may have to add out of state property added to budget. Should of got a 94 or earlier so I wouldn't have to have an OBD for OBD compliant swap since 95 on LC80s were already OBD.

If it doesn't work out at that level I will definitely go down on pump element and/or turbo incrementally but pump must remain mechanical regardless. I definitely want it drivable without fatigue.

Since this is a frame off partial restoration, somewhat high budget build I want to at least try. I am trying to go all out on this build in regards to everything.

I really use my vehicles, this will not just be a mall crawler, I really put on miles on and off, I consider myself a rocklander with ocassional high speed desert running. I love technical obstacles. This has to perform reliably as I plan to take it worldwide tour if I ever get to retire.

I want the rig to feel new for once and am trying to only buy once, cry once and not left to wonder.

 

[mudgudgeon]

If it doesn't work out at that level I will definitely go down on pump element and/or turbo incrementally

am trying to only buy once, cry once

Do lots of homework then, coz your already going into this ready to fire the parts cannon, loaded with expensives parts.

Take on what's said as a prompt to do more research.

I'm not familiar with the merc engine, but turbo choice will probably be the single biggest factor in how it behaves.

The great thing about diesels is they produce torque at low RPM. Maximising this is what makes them drivable.
It's hard to get a turbo that will work at low RPM without running out of top end, or without choking the top end.

There's several good aftermarket options for 4.2 litre diesels, and 5.9 Cummins. Not sure what's available for a 3.0 litre engine

I'd suggest seeing if Gturbo has developed a turbo range suited to 3.0litre D4D Hilux engine.

Your comment "they perform like a gas engine" is an odd one to me. The awesome thing about a turbo diesel is the torque at low RPM.
I'd love my 1fzfe to perform like my 1hd-t did with very few mods.
They are very different in the way the drive.

 

[mjosoba]

Do lots of homework then, coz your already going into this ready to fire the parts cannon, loaded with expensives parts.

Take on what's said as a prompt to do more research.

I'm not familiar with the merc engine, but turbo choice will probably be the single biggest factor in how it behaves.

The great thing about diesels is they produce torque at low RPM. Maximising this is what makes them drivable.
It's hard to get a turbo that will work at low RPM without running out of top end, or without choking the top end.

There's several good aftermarket options for 4.2 litre diesels, and 5.9 Cummins. Not sure what's available for a 3.0 litre engine

I'd suggest seeing if Gturbo has developed a turbo range suited to 3.0litre D4D Hilux engine.

Your comment "they perform like a gas engine" is an odd one to me. The awesome thing about a turbo diesel is the torque at low RPM.
I'd love my 1fzfe to perform like my 1hd-t did with very few mods.
They are very different in the way the drive.

I think I’ve seen some guys run the 5.0 cm/3 he221 on these. Might be one to look at.

 

[PIP]

The difficult part about doing anything like this is you are at the mercy of what someone else says is great on the internet.

Optimism can be especially cruel to those who take what they see or read at face value.

I think it's the Dunning-Kruger effect where those that don't have much of a clue are the most confident.

Really keep that in the forefront of your thought process as you get into this. Maybe tiptoe into the shallow end before you dive into the deep end of the diesel swap pool. Especially roping friends and family in before you have first hand experience.

I don't want to discourage you. I just want you to slow way down and process what facts you are relying on to make your decisions because it sounds like it's near 100% anecdotal to me.

If you said you wanted to use an om606 turned up around 220hp in an 80 series with a 343 or 442 I'd say that sounds like a reasonable goal.

You throw around 500, 600+ hp and, well, you can just reread above again until it sinks in.

And don't ever believe corrected dyno numbers from data logging software. Especially inertia dynos. They are a comparison tool.

You can believe the uncorrected raw torque @ rpm data from a waterbrake dyno. Otherwise, no. It's just fiction.