Advice on the condition of this turbo? Thanks.

[cody c]

If you're burning 3qt/1000mi and its coming from the turbo, you'll know; the inside of your intake pipes will be soaked. I have a truck that burns 1qt/1000 and its nasty in there, you can't miss it.

a) check the intake upstream of the turbo, wherever you have the crankcase vent. If its oily there then you have bad blowby, probably a ring problem.

b) if a) is clean, check the intake downstream of the turbo. If its oily there then your turbo is passing oil, possibly a problem with the drain line.

c) if a) and b) are both clean then the problem is inside the engine, but somehow doesn't create a lot of blowby... e.g. a head problem like valve guides, gasket, etc.

The drain line might be a good/easy/cheap place to start. If there was any blockage in the turbo or post turbo it would be causing those conditions.

Its too bad you dont have another turbo on the shelf to check things.

When we built Ian's 3B turbo we rebuilt it and it seeps into his intake still. Im not sure what the problem is, but the rebuild parts were pretty simple to install.

I look forward to you finding the issue(s) as it may help us figure out his leaky 60 as well.

 

[Tapage]

did you ever open your oil cap and ( not both at same time ) pull oil dip stick while engine it's running @ normal operative temp .. blow by .?

 

[kevinmrowland]

If you're burning 3qt/1000mi and its coming from the turbo, you'll know; the inside of your intake pipes will be soaked. I have a truck that burns 1qt/1000 and its nasty in there, you can't miss it.

a) check the intake upstream of the turbo, wherever you have the crankcase vent. If its oily there then you have bad blowby, probably a ring problem.

b) if a) is clean, check the intake downstream of the turbo. If its oily there then your turbo is passing oil, possibly a problem with the drain line.

c) if a) and b) are both clean then the problem is inside the engine, but somehow doesn't create a lot of blowby... e.g. a head problem like valve guides, gasket, etc.

The vent line, pre turbo intake and post turbo intake have just a light mist of oil.
The vent line has always had a light coating of oil and a bit of that has always gotten into the first part of the intake. The post turbo intake has always been relatively clean and it still is, but there IS a tiny bit more oil coating in there than there ever was before. FAR from nasty though, just a light spray coat.

So not clean, a tiny bit worse, but the vent line is really in the same condition it has always been.

The drain line might be a good/easy/cheap place to start. If there was any blockage in the turbo or post turbo it would be causing those conditions.

Its too bad you don't have another turbo on the shelf to check things.

When we built Ian's 3B turbo we rebuilt it and it seeps into his intake still. Im not sure what the problem is, but the rebuild parts were pretty simple to install.

I look forward to you finding the issue(s) as it may help us figure out his leaky 60 as well.

I'm really with Dougal on his opinion of the turbo seals on this one, they are not much of a seal at all, it makes sense that they would leak due to some other pressure/vacuum effect rather than of their own volition.
As for the drain, it really is a beautiful drain, probably a 3/4" stainless line that goes to a rubber elbow, should provide tons of flow. I can remove it and make sure it's not plugged but I have no idea how that would have happened?

did you ever open your oil cap and ( not both at same time ) pull oil dip stick while engine it's running @ normal operative temp .. blow by .?

My friends over in the 60 section have been helping with the problem as well and one of them suggested a similar test, stating that in really bad cases the blow-by can pop the oil cap off after it's been unthreaded and set there:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/552977-rusty-wagon-rebuild-18.html#post7767232


So I made a video of that as well:

 

[kevinmrowland]

Here is a pic of that drain line:

 

[amaurer]

Sounds like you've ruled out the turbo and the rings.

Must be something up top. Stem seals?

 

[snowboardonsnow]

Sounds like you've ruled out the turbo and the rings.

Must be something up top. Stem seals?

I agree, I know you already looked over the top end but its got to be in there somewhere.

 

[cody c]

Sounds like you've ruled out the turbo and the rings.

Must be something up top. Stem seals?

if it was your valve seals allowing some pressure to the top end, you should see it by pulling the oil cap and pulling on the throttle arm to get the exhaust and turbo pressure up, I would think.

Is there a crank case vent that feeds back into the engine intake or a catch can or something? Changing the crank pressure by making a vent at the oil cap and then driving it to see if there is less or more oil seepage may tell you something.

 

[Tapage]

by the vid I see some blow by .. but not that bad .. any chance you mess with your IP timing .?

 

[kevinmrowland]

Sounds like you've ruled out the turbo and the rings.

Must be something up top. Stem seals?

Wait, what? How did I rule out rings?
No crazy blow-by?

I agree, I know you already looked over the top end but its got to be in there somewhere.

There is not much to be able to look over from the top of the head though, I just looked careful at everything, you can't see any part of the valves or seals or anything. I was really just looking at oil patterns and whatnot.

if it was your valve seals allowing some pressure to the top end, you should see it by pulling the oil cap and pulling on the throttle arm to get the exhaust and turbo pressure up, I would think.

Is there a crank case vent that feeds back into the engine intake or a catch can or something? Changing the crank pressure by making a vent at the oil cap and then driving it to see if there is less or more oil seepage may tell you something.

There is a big vent line that goes from the valve cover to the air intake, pre turbo, right up by the filter, factory style.

by the vid I see some blow by .. but not that bad .. any chance you mess with your IP timing .?

I think there is more than there used to be, but not 3qts per 1200 miles more.
I could mess with my IP timing, but I have not, how would that tie in with oil consumption?
I DID put in rebuilt injectors though, can not figure out how that would effect oil consumption either though.



I modified my compression tester to work as a leak-down, so I will be pressurizing the cylinders and seeing if I can trace the air, might be able to get to that tonight.




KR

 

[amaurer]

if it was your valve seals allowing some pressure to the top end, you should see it by pulling the oil cap and pulling on the throttle arm to get the exhaust and turbo pressure up, I would think.

Its nearly impossible to build any boost without load on the engine; I doubt he'll be able to see anything that way.

Wait, what? How did I rule out rings?
No crazy blow-by?

Right.


I'd pull the valve cover and look closely at the stem seals to see what there is to see.

 

[Dougal]

I'd run air into the cylinder that is low on the compression test and listen for the leak. Is is valves or is it rings?

 

[hybric4x4diesel]

hi ,looking at the return pipe,it seem a bit low to me,i hz takes about 10 -11.8 litres of oil,depending on years and model,so did you ever fill it up with water on the bench while it is out from the engine when you are doing the return fitting?make sure oil level is lower then the return fitting or else you will be burning oil.

 

[kevinmrowland]

I'd pull the valve cover and look closely at the stem seals to see what there is to see.

I would like to, but on the HZ they are completely invisible, recessed and covered by the springs and valve shims, with the cam on top.
Motor has to come out to look them over.

I'd run air into the cylinder that is low on the compression test and listen for the leak. Is is valves or is it rings?

Will do, already moded my compression tester for the task, did not get that far this evening.

hi ,looking at the return pipe,it seem a bit low to me,i hz takes about 10 -11.8 litres of oil,depending on years and model,so did you ever fill it up with water on the bench while it is out from the engine when you are doing the return fitting?make sure oil level is lower then the return fitting or else you will be burning oil.

You know that is a really good point, never occurred to me.
I was not the one who put the drain in, in fact I thought it was actually a factory
1hd-t drain pan? I would think that the oil level is most definitely above the drain point (at rest anyway, not sure how the level goes down when running, i will do some figuring with the dipstick).
Also, if that were the case I would have thought the there would have been problems for the last 7 years as well, this is only a recent issue.



Can't thank you guys enough, this is all vey helpful, even just to have a sounding board to mull out what might be the cause, helps ease the mind a bit for sure.

KR

 

[jb BJ73]

There is a way of doing the valve stem seals without pulling the head. Haven't done it myself yet but it's usually doable and a pretty cheap way of eliminating them.

 

[amaurer]

There is a way of doing the valve stem seals without pulling the head. Haven't done it myself yet but it's usually doable and a pretty cheap way of eliminating them.

If it comes to that yeah, it can be done. I have a thread about it for my 3B.

 

[kevinmrowland]

Interesting, it looks like mechanically you can get the cam shaft out of the way without too much trouble, the FSM shows that the oil seals are just pulled out from the top with "needle nose pliers", very low tech.
But how did you compress the valve springs to get the retainer clips off? And then back together again since I would think they would drift down into the cylinder?

I need to determine if they are leaking first though, air pressure today.

 

[cody c]

how'd the pressure test go?

 

[buschmaster86]

how'd the pressure test go?

x27

realy intersting thread !

 

[amaurer]

Interesting, it looks like mechanically you can get the cam shaft out of the way without too much trouble, the FSM shows that the oil seals are just pulled out from the top with "needle nose pliers", very low tech.
But how did you compress the valve springs to get the retainer clips off? And then back together again since I would think they would drift down into the cylinder?

I need to determine if they are leaking first though, air pressure today.

Re. the valves...

Borrow a valve spring compressor from Autozone for removing the clips.

You put your makeshift leakdown tester on the cylinder and pressurize it to hold up the valve "up" while you're working.

 

[kevinmrowland]

how'd the pressure test go?

x27
realy intersting thread !

Yeah, sorry, didn't get to mess with this until this evening.


Results are!!!!........ inconclusive.


Here is my little air jig screwed into the glow plug hole:

I rotated the motor around to get the valves sealed up on each subsequent cylinder and pressurized them with a bit over 100psi.


I then used a "stethoscope" (i.e. hose) to listen to each suspect area, around the valve springs, in the intake, exhaust and crankcase.

For the most part each of the cylinders had the same tone/amount of blow-by and it was all past the rings into the crankcase. there were no crazy surprises with air blowing around the valves, two of the cylinders had the slightest intake valve leak.


Now in my mind this supports the valve seal verdict since the pressurized cylinders would not be able to test the valve seals, since the valves are seated in order to seal the cylinder to test it. A bad seal would be letting oil into the intake or the exhaust and subsequently getting it burned up (I think intake since the exhaust is clean, dry black carbon, no oil).


Now this is brilliant:

Re. the valves...
Borrow a valve spring compressor from Autozone for removing the clips.
You put your makeshift leakdown tester on the cylinder and pressurize it to hold up the valve "up" while you're working.

Especially keeping the valves up with the air pressure, however, it won't work on the HZ, here is why:




Take a look here, the springs are completely recessed in the head with an adjusting shim on top of them and an overhead cam.

From the other side:

The valve spring compressor needs to clamp right around the head with a long slotted barrel, not just hook on the side of an exposed spring.

The overhead cam can be removed in place though so I am thinking that I might be able to make a plate that bolts on in its place with threaded holes that hold bolts to compress the springs. Not sure if it would work/be worth it though.



For good measure here is the inside of the valve cover:

And this is the inside of the intake, you can see what I was saying about there being a light mist of oil in there, but it's not what I would call "nasty."

And I guess that's pretty much all I have for now, sorry to keep you waiting.