Absolute Best Winter Tire For The 80 (1 Viewer)

[SUMOTOY]

Yes, but it's also a lot softer and studs will dig easier in warm ice. Furthermore in colder weather rubber is harder and will be less pliable than in warmer weather. Nothing unexpected about that. What was your point?

Studs are designed to poke thru and grate the ice on which they ride. With softer ice, they poke thru more, and tend to have more grip in turns because of it. With harder ice, the studs don't poke thru as much, so the acceleration and cornering will be less. Let's not forget, that a studded tire may expose maybe 6-8 studs max to the contact patch at any given time. Which means they will have a large variance of performance for conditions present.

A dedicated ice tire on the other hand, is designed to have a much larger area of exposure for a given contact patch. Silica based tire compounds are very pliable down to some pretty low temps. At temps in the -20 ambient at Steamboat for example, you could stick your fingernail into the gummy bear tread section and understand that "less pliable" may apply to a non ice tire compound comparison.

Having driven on both studded and non studded tires, I agree with Idoug that for 95% of winter driving, a non studded ice tire will outperform a studded tire. As TC found out too, studded tires have a very narrow window where they may outperform a non studded ice tire.

Personal preference can be debated ad-infinitum, but the documentation regarding real world (on road) winter performance doesn't support a studded tire being a better winter tire than a non, only better at a specific winter condition. The other 95% of the time, the studs just come up short.

After a couple hundred miles of ice track driving on the Blizzacks with my 80, the level of winter performance is so high with the Blizzacks on our machines, I see the comparos as kinda silly. IMO/E an 80 with Blizzacks most dangerous winter condition, is the drivers of the other vehicles.

My further .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged mit Blizzacks

 

[83bj60]

Thank you, this was a great explanation! I can see why studded tires on regular rubber would outperform ice tires in average cold temperatures, but not in really cold weather like what we can get here in Canada.

Now where can I get a set of studded Blizzaks

Thanks for your input, much appreciated as always. This is the best winter tire thread I have read on the net.

 

[Nay]

One thing this thread is really missing is how radically a tire changes from a 265/75/16 to 315/75/16. Just about any AT tire in a 35" size will be more aggressive than it's counterpart MT in a 31" size.

I have tested my minivan on Nokkian Hakka Q's in a 27.5" size to the 35" trxus MT's on my 80 by simply going out in icy hardpack conditions in my neighborhood where I have a long straight line and no traffic. I take both to about 7-8 mph and slam on the brakes, and the minvan is pumping ABS in a hurry. The 80 remains composed and I have to really pound the brakes to get the ABS to activate.

I've done this several times, and the minivan has never come out ahead. It feels like it is always close to really breaking loose and doesn't provide great driver feedback. That is surprising for a heavy front wheel drive vehicle on dedicated snows braking in a straight line.

This is an apples to oranges comparison, of course, but that is the point - significant tire size variance is an apples to oranges comparison. You have different vehicles on radically diffent tire sizes and types, but you would never expect the 80 to on it's 35's and 4" lift to feel more in control.

I have further tested my "feels better" hypothesis by taking my wife out in the 80 for a series of snow driving tests. She does not like winter driving (I about had to force her to do it), and even with the Hakka Q's is virtually unwilling to drive the minivan ('04 Nissan Quest) in even moderate winter conditions because it spins tires quite a bit and gets into traction control in a hurry. I often had to turn TCS off in order to get up hills with any reasonable momentum.

During our test run, she was driving easily with one hand in the 80 and chatting about non-snow driving topics - just enjoying winter driving. This was up and down steep hills with icy shaded spots, around sharp corners, through snowplow created banks in just plain ole AWD low range mode.

The "Calm Wife" test is the number one performance test in all automotive endeavors. If you need a metric by which to choose tires, this is the one that makes the most sense because it is most likely to keep the bank open for future "necessary" withdrawals

 

[jasonmt]

V

jasonmt loves his narrow LT Nokians. But his vehicle is also almost 50% heavier than the 80 series Landcruiser. No wonder he dislikes the Blizzaks, which are known to be softer plus the fact he was comparing a wide P type tire to a narrow LT, a completely different tire in both compounds AND construction! I wonder how he would have fared with the Blizzak in the same exact type and size...

I would not say that I love them, for my particular situation and mindset I think they are one of the better choices. The Haks are far from the first set of studded tyres I have ran, in the recent past I have ran both the BFG Winter Slalom in 245/75/16 and Cooper Discover M+S in 265/75/15 on a few different 4Runners.

Having driven on both studded and non studded tires, I agree with Idoug that for 95% of winter driving, a non studded ice tire will outperform a studded tire. As TC found out too, studded tires have a very narrow window where they may outperform a non studded ice tire.

Personal preference can be debated ad-infinitum, but the documentation regarding real world (on road) winter performance doesn't support a studded tire being a better winter tire than a non, only better at a specific winter condition. The other 95% of the time, the studs just come up short.

If my choice was between a "old style" winter tyre with studs and a "new style" winter tyre without even though I am a stud guy I would most likely take the "new style", but once again I think many are overlooking that there are other choices in winter tyres that have both a winter/low temperature specific rubber compound that can be studded which gives you the best of both worlds.

As I am not in the habit of treating my 6K+, lifted 6" 80 on 35 or 37" tyres like a sports car especially in inclement weather the argument in regards to reduced handling etc. on dry pavement is a false face to me.

 

[turbocruiser]

I would not say that I love them, for my particular situation and mindset I think they are one of the better choices. The Haks are far from the first set of studded tyres I have ran, in the recent past I have ran both the BFG Winter Slalom in 245/75/16 and Cooper Discover M+S in 265/75/15 on a few different 4Runners.

Jason, would you write out a review here in this thread specific to the Cooper Discoverer M&S please? Where they shine, where they dont shine, treadwear, etc. The look totally impressive and seem to blend the best of rubber chemistry, studs, and siping out the yin-yang. Almost seems like you cannot go wrong with them but reviews are scarce. Thanks so much!

 

[jerseyfzj80]

Turbocruiser,
I ran the cooper M&S on my tacoma for two witners and then when I sold my taco and bought the 80 I gave them to my mom for her taco. Great tire for the dollars, the only misgiving I have about them is thay did not evacuate water/slush real well @ elevated speeds (70 mph and higher) They are fine in straight rain but a little dicey @ high speeds in slushy stuff. The tires in total have 57,000 miles on them and they are getting a little loud but they have been on two tacoma's for four years straight. Never got it stuck and I tried alot.

Colin

 

[turbocruiser]

Turbocruiser,
I ran the cooper M&S on my tacoma for two witners and then when I sold my taco and bought the 80 I gave them to my mom for her taco. Great tire for the dollars, the only misgiving I have about them is thay did not evacuate water/slush real well @ elevated speeds (70 mph and higher) They are fine in straight rain but a little dicey @ high speeds in slushy stuff. The tires in total have 57,000 miles on them and they are getting a little loud but they have been on two tacoma's for four years straight. Never got it stuck and I tried alot.

Colin

Excellent! Thanks for that, maybe I missed it but what winter tires are you currently running on the 80 and how do those compare? Even though I'm a registered speed freak, I would not drive on-road that fast through winter weather precip (off-road is a different deal alltogether and I love high speed snow runs in the mountains); I'm actually pretty conservative in conditions like that on-road. Also, maybe I missed it before but why are the tires getting louder with age? Do the studs stick out further or is it that the rubber is getting hard or is it something else? Thanks again, I'm loving all this awesome info.

 

[LC80Ducati996]

Given how fickle and fast conditions can change and the amount of work to swap 4 to 5 tires on a LC80 I am really thinking 4 season tire.

Also ice grip is cool and everything... What about deep piles of the heavier snow. What about days when it all thaws and you have a sloppy gravel road other days slush mixed with ice.. ETC..

Some comments on winter use here
http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/wheels/129_0709_cooper_stt_tire_test/index.html

On a day where freezing rain formed over a clean road the best ice track tires are better. However a serious blizzard with deep drifts something more aggessive wins. I have seen alternating warm and cold streaks. Glare ice then mud holes and back.

What is best depends on your area.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Given how fickle and fast conditions can change and the amount of work to swap 4 to 5 tires on a LC80 I am really thinking 4 season tire.

Also ice grip is cool and everything... What about deep piles of the heavier snow. What about days when it all thaws and you have a sloppy gravel road other days slush mixed with ice.. ETC..

Some comments on winter use here
http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/wheels/129_0709_cooper_stt_tire_test/index.html

On a day where freezing rain formed over a clean road the best ice track tires are better. However a serious blizzard with deep drifts something more aggessive wins. I have seen alternating warm and cold streaks. Glare ice then mud holes and back.

What is best depends on your area.

The good news is that just about any winter tire on the 80 will give some pretty outstanding performance. Nay's point is well taken, the 80 is a phenomenal winter truck chassis in and of itself. Put a good set of dedicated winter tires on it, regardless of personal preference, the ability of the chassis maximizes the performance of a given tire.

In my Blizzack test runs at Steamboat, the key appears to be allowing the tire to have flex, and allow the suspension to stay soft. I found a 2psi difference in tire pressure (I ran 26-28 on all 4), like going to 30-32psi, lowered the back to back performance. A bigger difference was the suspension. I run a stock suspension, stock shocks with airbags x 4. I ran the airbags at the lowest pressure (6psi). Going to 10psi, the suspension was too stiff to follow the track surface.

Given how well the 80 (with CDL only) performed against the most tweeked of audi quattros running the same tire and CDL/RDL, there is no question in my mind that the 80 is a great winter chassis. Put a good set of dedicated winter tires on it, the fine slicing of specific conditions seems moot. I personally can't say enough good things about the stock size Blizzack DMZ3 on a stock 80. After 2 winters with them in every concievable road conditions, they appear to have very few compromises. How much of that is attributable to the excellent chassis and suspension design? Possibly more than anyone gives credit. I just chuckle thinking of bolting on a supercharger and a set of Blizzacks, and finding very few audi quattros could match the combo.

Scott J

 

[turbocruiser]

I just chuckle thinking of bolting on a supercharger and a set of Blizzacks, and finding very few audi quattros could match the combo.

Scott J

Exactly, that's why I wrote above that the 80 looked so composed, and just as fast as the Audis which were sliding all around looking like morons. Don't worry Scott, the way yer going, sooner or later you will be ALLLL Toyota and forgot those funny little Audis alltogether !!!

 

[Nay]

The good news is that just about any winter tire on the 80 will give some pretty outstanding performance. Nay's point is well taken, the 80 is a phenomenal winter truck chassis in and of itself. Put a good set of dedicated winter tires on it, regardless of personal preference, the ability of the chassis maximizes the performance of a given tire.

In my Blizzack test runs at Steamboat, the key appears to be allowing the tire to have flex, and allow the suspension to stay soft. I found a 2psi difference in tire pressure (I ran 26-28 on all 4), like going to 30-32psi, lowered the back to back performance. A bigger difference was the suspension. I run a stock suspension, stock shocks with airbags x 4. I ran the airbags at the lowest pressure (6psi). Going to 10psi, the suspension was too stiff to follow the track surface.

Given how well the 80 (with CDL only) performed against the most tweeked of audi quattros running the same tire and CDL/RDL, there is no question in my mind that the 80 is a great winter chassis. Put a good set of dedicated winter tires on it, the fine slicing of specific conditions seems moot. I personally can't say enough good things about the stock size Blizzack DMZ3 on a stock 80. After 2 winters with them in every concievable road conditions, they appear to have very few compromises. How much of that is attributable to the excellent chassis and suspension design? Possibly more than anyone gives credit. I just chuckle thinking of bolting on a supercharger and a set of Blizzacks, and finding very few audi quattros could match the combo.

Scott J

Well said. I have had more issues resulting from a lack of "smoothness" in winter driving than anything else. I used to run a clutch style limited slip rear because I was scared of all the advice on how terrible automatic lockers are. And it would engage under throttle heading uphill and kick out the rear.

With a rear Detroit (this was my old AWD XJ) and front TruTrac, the damn thing was unshakeable. It had a 7" lift and 34" trxus and flat out embarrassed our Sube Legacy wagon with all seasons to the point I had to put some Nokian WR's on the sube to keep up.

That was a 1,500 lb lighter rig than the 80, and the composure of the 80 is remarkable for its size and weight. In many ways I think that the ability to lock or unlock all three diffs, in low or high range, gives you more adaptability to conditions than do your tires. It is easy to take those little switches for granted, but they provide an incredible amount of fine tuning for the conditions.

This is one of the things I love most about the 80 - with the CDL mod you have an unbelieveable set of high and low range options out of the box. That may be the single greatest advantage this platform contains beyond the fact that it eight people can come along for the ride.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Exactly, that's why I wrote above that the 80 looked so composed, and just as fast as the Audis which were sliding all around looking like morons. Don't worry Scott, the way yer going, sooner or later you will be ALLLL Toyota and forgot those funny little Audis alltogether

TC to date I'm still more experienced at building audis than toyota trucks, so I doubt I'll give up the turbo quattros. I currently have 3 early 80's turbo quattros, 1 of which became the car to beat at the Steamboat track back in '03, and holds the record still. Somewhere I have a video of that machine coming up a long sweeping offcamber carousel at speeds my SC 80 couldn't do on dry pavement.

That said, I agree with you and Nay that the 80 is one of the biggest sleeper trucks on the road. I personally love the 4 piston brakes, the very balanced handling on road and off. With stock LTX tires, I've drifted some of Chicago's more circuitous offramps against some impress-ed/ive sports cars.

The ice videos of the truck really show how high a performance level those Blizzacks give. Given more time, I would have loved to really push the limits ala turbo quattro antics (I assure you TC, there are no morons, just a lot of talented ice dancers), but mentally it's really tough to go that far in commitment. Especially with only 26hours on a new-to-me supercharger.

I noticed too that the Bizzack DMZ3 at 119ea from tire rack, hasn't changed price much since I bought mine 2 years ago. That's a lot of winter tire for the money!



Scott J

 

[turbocruiser]

Somewhere I have a video of that machine coming up a long sweeping offcamber carousel at speeds my SC 80 couldn't do on dry pavement.



Scott J

Scott, swap in a turbo and you'll smoke all of em!!!

BTW, I did not mean to say that your friends from the event were "morons" I just thought that they were wildly out of control ergo "sliding all around looking like morons" I'm sure that they were just testing the limits of traction but they were much less composed, and not any faster, than you with your 80.

Anyways, again, swap in a turbo and you'll smoke all of em! Or, better yet, I better get my goofy ass up there and try it one of these years.

 

[LC80Ducati996]

http://www.arctictrucks.com/


AT408 tires

Perfect for what they do

Really tho I wish tire MFGs spent less time on BS and more on getting us what works.

Hey BFG quit messing around with molding concept tires with nike designs on them for some retarded "hummer". Make a new tire KMI-2. Yep key feature mud and ice. Just put some zig zag sipes in the lugs like the A408.

Hey Cooper Thompson, I mean mickey cepek... ya you guys... The Mickey T specialty sizes ought to include a bit skinnier than traditional sizes and not just tires as wide as louie andersons butt. Maybe a radial north country for those of us whos dunes melt away every spring and we drive more time miles trying to get to thru snow to the pavement on road than most south west types spend off road.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Scott, swap in a turbo and you'll smoke all of em!!!

BTW, I did not mean to say that your friends from the event were "morons" I just thought that they were wildly out of control ergo "sliding all around looking like morons" I'm sure that they were just testing the limits of traction but they were much less composed, and not any faster, than you with your 80.

Anyways, again, swap in a turbo and you'll smoke all of em! Or, better yet, I better get my goofy ass up there and try it one of these years.

Best fun you will have with your clothes on is that Steamboat Ice Track Shaun... IMO/E the turbo on an 80 really won't help, it was the total lack of lag at 7300feet that gave the SC the edge. So much so, I'm tempted to put a SC on a early quattro. However, I tend to use the small k24 turbo in my early 80's turbo quattro coupes, with it's group B rally roots susp/chassis and almost 300lb/ft of torque at 2800rpm. 2800lb curb weight with center and rear air lockers, it just composes controlled speed much faster than the beefchunk 80 can.

But I sure liked driving the 80 on ice, and came away with a great respect for the stock suspension and an 80's winter capabilities. Much higher than I'd have ever thought. And the drag races in Steamboat Springs against the F250 turbo diesel crowd got some dumbfounded looks as the ascribed 80 slug leaped from the lights. Silly stuff. Won't be taking it this year in favor of a purpose built dedicated ice track quattro, but I'll miss the fun I had with it.

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[83bj60]

As the Nokians have become impossible to even find where I live and based on SUMOTOY's excellent opinion and experience of this tire in passenger tire profile and construction and the narrow and stiff tire preference of jasonmt who loves his narrow LT Nokians, both of which drive their vehicles in real snow and cold weather, I have come to the conclusion that the Blizzak would be the best overall for initial grip and may not that bad in terms of wear after all, especially if the LT version is used, which may also be just stiff enough as it is usually considered by many to be too soft. That should strike a happy overall balance.

In other words, Blizzak for the tread compound, LT for a bit better stiffness, ruggedness and possibly slightly better wear for good reliability on our potholed roads and better snow penetration while still having a good ice grip with slightly deeper tread.

Like everyone has said, there are no perfect tires, and in our vehicle tire sizes, there aren't many choices available in narrow and thin. So I doubt this tire will prove unsatisfactory. I guess I will be the first to try the Blizzak W965 LT235/85R16 on OEM Toyota 16" narrow steel rims on the 80 series Landcruiser, and I will be more than happy to contribute my experience with it as I go.

As expected, the price for 4 tires installed and balanced in my parts after taxes is $1058. Bought from Tirerack, Fedexed 2 days, installed and balanced in Maine, $640. Considering the Cannuck dollar closely at par (US 1.01 or something like that now), that was a no brainer for me. The only disadvantage is, as a Canadian, you cannot get road hazard insurance. But the LT being a more robust tire, I don't expect this to be a problem.

Thank you all for your great contributions. I will be getting the new tires on this Friday right after I get down there for Thanksgiving.

 

[turbocruiser]

As the Nokians have become impossible to even find where I live and based on SUMOTOY's excellent opinion and experience of this tire in passenger tire profile and construction and the narrow and stiff tire preference of jasonmt who loves his narrow LT Nokians, both of which drive their vehicles in real snow and cold weather, I have come to the conclusion that the Blizzak would be the best overall for initial grip and may not that bad in terms of wear after all, especially if the LT version is used, which may also be just stiff enough as it is usually considered by many to be too soft. That should strike a happy overall balance.

In other words, Blizzak for the tread compound, LT for a bit better stiffness, ruggedness and possibly slightly better wear for good reliability on our potholed roads and better snow penetration while still having a good ice grip with slightly deeper tread.

Like everyone has said, there are no perfect tires, and in our vehicle tire sizes, there aren't many choices available in narrow and thin. So I doubt this tire will prove unsatisfactory. I guess I will be the first to try the Blizzak W965 LT235/85R16 on OEM Toyota 16" narrow steel rims on the 80 series Landcruiser, and I will be more than happy to contribute my experience with it as I go.

As expected, the price for 4 tires installed and balanced in my parts after taxes is $1058. Bought from Tirerack, Fedexed 2 days, installed and balanced in Maine, $640. Considering the Cannuck dollar closely at par (US 1.01 or something like that now), that was a no brainer for me. The only disadvantage is, as a Canadian, you cannot get road hazard insurance. But the LT being a more robust tire, I don't expect this to be a problem.

Thank you all for your great contributions. I will be getting the new tires on this Friday right after I get down there for Thanksgiving.

Wow, very cool, I cannot wait for the reports to come!

 

[jasonmt]

The Nokians were easy to find for me, the local Kal tyre I deal with had them in stock when I called. If memory serves the total came to around $1300 for 5 tyres, studding, M&B and a take off stock GMC Al rim for the spare.

Just for giggles my "guy" gave me a price of $840 all in for 4 Blizzak W965 LT235/85R16 when I called today.

Let us know how they work, I am going to be interested in how many miles you get out of the "winter" compound.

 

[BooKilla]

35" bfg at

 

[turbocruiser]

35" bfg at

Now that's funnay!!!



The BFG AT's and even the AT KO's ( I had 3 sets and 1 set respectively) were downright scary in almost all winter weather conditions. They were reasonably good in sorta deep snow but they were scary in almost all other winter weather conditions. The REVOS are ten times better and I still think that the REVOS are also downright scary at times around ice so I'm trying to do better here not worse!

Anyways, Happy Thanksgiving My Fine Friends!!!