We don't get much snow or ice in Portland, but when we get hit it gets nasty in the hills. I put on chains all the way around with Toyo MTs and so far I have been able to go where I need to during those few nasty icy days!
Absolute Best Winter Tire For The 80
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Interesting observations. I compared these two tires back to back on a buddy's SC 4Runner (neither studded), and we both found that the hakkas were closest to the Blizzacks as a non ice tire, but ultimately, the Blizzacks outperformed the hakkas in all around winter performance. At the time, the Hakkas were not available in the stock size, so I went with the Blizzacks, and really can't say bad things about them.
The roll on the tires is inherent to the Blizzacks, I actually put inner tubes in the car application (quattro) I run at Steamboat. I don't care for this personality either, but I never lost control or had an incident where this was a problem on the 80, including a 5000lb trailer tow....
Bridgestone put the standard winter tire up for comparo over 10 years ago with the Blizzack. I still find it notable that it's still the standard now. The Hakka Rsi is the closest I've seen to the Blizzack in terms of ice tire performance (non studded).
Given how my 80 with just a supercharger and Blizzacks handled the Ice Track at Steamboat against the turbo audi quattros, I make the claim that the Blizzacks on ice are great winter tires on the 80. IMO, the best all around winter tire for our trucks. Chains, studs, and other dedicated snows can best them for a given set of conditions. But even there, the Blizzacks will hold their own until they find their element again...
I'm going after another set for this winter, and can't be happier that 30k on the old ones was exponentially beyond my expectations.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged with DMZ3's
OK , THAT looks like the Fantasy trucks i would build with legos as a kid..... wow
tires are like women
enough said.
(what? I was meaning Trial and Error, you just got to try one on to know if it will work for you.)
tires are like women
enough said.
(what? I was meaning Trial and Error, you just got to try one on to know if it will work for you.)
These look pretty good for a snow tire. If you can fit 38" tires on 12-14" wide wheels
Hilux Invincible
Curious what those reps said. Nokkian has actually published that in their testing, the Blizzak is a better year one tire. In years 2 and beyond the Nokkians get better. You would buy the Nokkians over the Blizzaks if you have mostly dry conditions - I ran a set of Hakkas all the way through the summer, because I thought I wouldn't get another year out of them, and not only did they last the summer they lasted through the next winter. I wouldn't try that on a Blizzak.
The Hakkas are a very good dry pavement tire - they are like a premium AT, very good handling and very quiet - and you'd expect that with the directional tread design. These tires are made for higher speed Northern European winter driving.
The Blizzaks aren't dry pavement biased. Probably doesn't matter much on a truck, but on a fast AWD car probably not your choice for mostly dry pavement. Having said that, remember that Bridgestone invented the multicell compound that created the "studless" category, and they may still have an edge in compound technology.
I'd stick with your decision to keep the Revos. They will cover a greater range of conditions than the pure winter tires without a material downside if you will carry chains for pure ice.
One more thing to consider - I've never liked an "all season" compound, but these newer silica based compounds, which are traditionally used for very high speed winter use in AWD cars, are really exceptionally competent in all but the most extreme conditions. I just put a set of silica compound Yokohama TRZ's on my minivan instead of replacing the Nokkians. So far, I can't say I am disappointed in the results (and yes, I have had a good snow to test already), and this keeps me on one tire with an 80K mile life. The gap in the average tire has closed - the most recent advances are not in the studless snows but in the all season/AT category.
If I was buying a winter tire for my 80 in a 315, I'd want that Nokkian LT, which is basically the SUV version of the WR. I ran WR's on my sube (these are the silica compound tires that can be run four seasons) and they were awesome. Maybe not as good as a studless in ice, but still predictable and excellent tires. Can even be had in a Z rating for some cars. Great tire that would suit an AWD truck that sees mostly dry pavement very, very well.
The Hakkas are a very good dry pavement tire - they are like a premium AT, very good handling and very quiet - and you'd expect that with the directional tread design. These tires are made for higher speed Northern European winter driving.
The Blizzaks aren't dry pavement biased. Probably doesn't matter much on a truck, but on a fast AWD car probably not your choice for mostly dry pavement. Having said that, remember that Bridgestone invented the multicell compound that created the "studless" category, and they may still have an edge in compound technology.
I'd stick with your decision to keep the Revos. They will cover a greater range of conditions than the pure winter tires without a material downside if you will carry chains for pure ice.
One more thing to consider - I've never liked an "all season" compound, but these newer silica based compounds, which are traditionally used for very high speed winter use in AWD cars, are really exceptionally competent in all but the most extreme conditions. I just put a set of silica compound Yokohama TRZ's on my minivan instead of replacing the Nokkians. So far, I can't say I am disappointed in the results (and yes, I have had a good snow to test already), and this keeps me on one tire with an 80K mile life. The gap in the average tire has closed - the most recent advances are not in the studless snows but in the all season/AT category.
If I was buying a winter tire for my 80 in a 315, I'd want that Nokkian LT, which is basically the SUV version of the WR. I ran WR's on my sube (these are the silica compound tires that can be run four seasons) and they were awesome. Maybe not as good as a studless in ice, but still predictable and excellent tires. Can even be had in a Z rating for some cars. Great tire that would suit an AWD truck that sees mostly dry pavement very, very well.
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OK, since you are the one running the tire on the same machine as I, what dimension of Blizzaks are you running on the 80? I would like to avoid installing a wide and short tire and much prefer a narrow and tall tire, but I will consider your choice.
Also our winters tend to be very cold, and apart from heavy slushy conditions during snow storm (due to heavy use of road salt), I experience hard packed snow with sand abrasive ('crunchy' or smooth and hard like ice would best describe it) on really bumpy, winding roads (15% of my mileage) and dry super cold roads with the occasional hard ice patch (85% of my mileage on our highways). Do you experience similar conditions?
Thanks for your input, as always
In the larger size (315 75R 16) I am using these. I believe they are the only ice tire in that size. So with running 4.88s they are basically my only choice. http://www.yokohamatire.com/pdf/geoit.pdf
I can only compare them to Blizzak DMs on a 1999 Grand Cherokee. They are very close to the blizzaks. It is a tough comparison as the vehicles are so different. I am now on my 4th winter and they have held up very well, and I am the type that will change the tires out a year earlier than most, in the name of traction, rather than push them. I live where you can have everything from freezing rain to 3' overnight, and everything between, from november to april. So if you are looking in the 315 size this is it.
I can only compare them to Blizzak DMs on a 1999 Grand Cherokee. They are very close to the blizzaks. It is a tough comparison as the vehicles are so different. I am now on my 4th winter and they have held up very well, and I am the type that will change the tires out a year earlier than most, in the name of traction, rather than push them. I live where you can have everything from freezing rain to 3' overnight, and everything between, from november to april. So if you are looking in the 315 size this is it.
Why such a wide tire when the two most important functions for a winter tire are to 1) cut through the snow and slush accumulation and 2) grip the ice under the thin layer of water that lubricates it?
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- #108
WOW guys, thanks for the follow through!!! Scott that last post of yours really clarified my confusion and accurately reflects my experience too that the Blizzaks are really awesome all around but that there are things that they may not manage as well as chains, studs, or even MT's AT's etc. Completely fair comparison there. Also I thought that it was interesting to see that even Nokian admits that the Blizzak is better at least for the first year. Strange thing is that several people stated (here and at these various tire places I have called) that the Nokians are too hard to use after about four seasons. I know that Nokian also has some pretty strict "Run In" procedures for the tires, especially the studded ones. That almost makes me think that perhaps by the fourth season, the "Run In" is no longer effective??? Anyways, this is terrifically helpful to me, and hopefully to others, so I wanted to thank everyone for giving their guidance.
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- #110
Exactly, and that brings up the clearance concern --- my Revos for example are 33", the Blizzaks, Haks or anything else available are about 31". Is that going to matter much? Dunno but there is that difference in clearance combined with the difference in deep snow capability and those two things together MIGHT make a world of difference.
We get alot of snow here, but we also have tons of ice. The climate is fairly maritime and we also have 3-4 rain events and most of the snow falls at about 32*F. Almost everyone who lives here uses an ice radial of some sort. No real clear winner, they are just so much better than any AT or conventional snow or severe winter rated tire. I also use my yoko IT+ for alot of hwy and they work quite well for that. I think sometimes we get paralysis by analysis. An 80 with any dedicated ice radial will be awesome.
Oh ya the snow they are referring to: My driveway
WOW guys, thanks for the follow through!!! Scott that last post of yours really clarified my confusion and accurately reflects my experience too that the Blizzaks are really awesome all around but that there are things that they may not manage as well as chains, studs, or even MT's AT's etc. Completely fair comparison there. Also I thought that it was interesting to see that even Nokian admits that the Blizzak is better at least for the first year. Strange thing is that several people stated (here and at these various tire places I have called) that the Nokians are too hard to use after about four seasons. I know that Nokian also has some pretty strict "Run In" procedures for the tires, especially the studded ones. That almost makes me think that perhaps by the fourth season, the "Run In" is no longer effective??? Anyways, this is terrifically helpful to me, and hopefully to others, so I wanted to thank everyone for giving their guidance.
Well, any winter tires starts to be less effective after several seasons. The Hakkas are no different... But with studs, you will notice the tread does not wear faster than the studs (at least teh SUV types) so it is reasonable to conclude the tread rubber is actually pretty hard. But they do stay pretty effective year after year although they become noticeably less efective after the second winter. But for sure this is not a 'deep snow' or trail tire (but neither are the Blizzaks).
It comes down to durability versus first year effciciency. The Blizzacks are probably vastly superior the first year then become poor or even useless the second. I don't particularly like the idea of having to replace my winter tires every winter! Except on wet or glare ice, the Hakkas are very effective and predictable year after year, and they last a long time.
Hmmm... Looks like I convinced myself of getting a set of Nokians (once again), sure wish Nokian would respond to my email inquiry...
So... it seems to boil down to:
LOTS of wet ice and mostly city driving: Blzzaks
LOTS of hard snow and diffcult snowy roads such as what is found in the countryside: Nokians.
LOTS of deep snow: the Trxus look like they would do a better job there
What size and type Revos are you using, Turbocruiser?
beautiful pictures
So if I understand correctly, you are basically saying your wide tires work great in these conditions, no slippage on snow and ice?
That is a plus to know... The new rubber formulation may well contradict the old adage of "thinner is better" after all...
Still waiting for Nokian Tires to confirm this (or not)...
Damn, it needs to start snowing
. This is actually the key point, IMO. You have snow that falls in a near maritime climate and may be interspersed with rain events. That guides your regional tire choices.I have powder that falls in most good storms in the teens to low 20's, from October to May or even June, although by May it's not really powder anymore. "Dry" snow is a strange beast for anybody used to coastal moisture, which I was for most of my life, not that Virginia gets much snow. It packs down and gets slick in a real hurry, yet it's about impossible to get on top of it.
We can have ratios of 1" of water to 20"-40" of snow whereas you can have as low as 1:8 or so. I can't say that a IT is the best choice here just because it may be there - in an emergency I may need to get out of a 200' driveway that can have 4'+ drifts across it out to an interstate that may be a mixture of hardpack with wind blasted dry areas and severe drifting spots. In powder conditions, there is no "getting on top of the snow with snow on snow traction". You have to dig and plow through.
I did this very thing last winter to test during a major blizzard, because my next door neighbor's 1 year old girl spiked a 105 degree fever and her dad was stuck at work and couldn't get home on his BFG AT's. Sometimes you can't wait for the plows and rescue can't get to you.
Ever seen a ground blizzard where it is sunny and windy after a major storm and the snow is blowing across the road like a blizzard when an hour earlier it was calm when you went to the mall in a pair of jeans? What tire do you choose when a 40" snowpack is readjusting itself under the guidance of a gale force wind and you just thought you were going to the mall?
The point is you can't make overly generic assumptions about any tire "because you get a lot of snow". Given most of us probably have an 80 series because we have a higher "self reliance" ethic than the average person, I think you choose a tire based on the problem you are trying to solve for the region in which you live.
Chains are fine, but a child spiking a fever in a blizzard who needs immediate medical attention doesn't provide you with chain up/chain down time going from major drifts to areas of wind blasted dry pavement. I turn my truck around before every blizzard so it is facing out, and lock the rear and CDL. I know for a fact that I can get out to the interstate - where the plows are running - through a 30" base with up to 4' drifts by doing nothing more than turning the ignition key (with a lot of throttle), and that is how I have chosen my tires.
I simply would not rely on a compact tread IT to do this, which has nothing to do with how good those tires are, but rather that in my analysis they don't fit my requirements and I could in fact go wrong by choosing them. My kids won't be small forever, and my "emergency sensitivity" won't always be this high, but for now this is why I consider to the Trxus MT to be the best possible winter tire for my usage, and that is why I run them.
Good idea to analyze your inputs and requirements if you are serious about your outputs.
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Great post, Nay If I lived in your area, I'd most probably get the same tires
If I lived in your area, I'd most probably get the same tires 
When do you guys swap out to snow tires? Do you wait till the first snow or just slap em on sometime in the fall. Is there a huge difference in performance from the stock michelin's on dry pavement?
Having read this thread I have settled on the Blizzaks. Good price, good performance on the type of conditions I'll see here in CT. I've always used all season tires year round on other vehicles, but I think I'd like to have snow tires for my LX given the extra weight, etc.
Having read this thread I have settled on the Blizzaks. Good price, good performance on the type of conditions I'll see here in CT. I've always used all season tires year round on other vehicles, but I think I'd like to have snow tires for my LX given the extra weight, etc.
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- #117
Damn, it needs to start snowing
I have powder that falls in most good storms in the teens to low 20's, from October to May or even June, although by May it's not really powder anymore. "Dry" snow is a strange beast for anybody used to coastal moisture, which I was for most of my life, not that Virginia gets much snow. It packs down and gets slick in a real hurry, yet it's about impossible to get on top of it.
We can have ratios of 1" of water to 20"-40" of snow whereas you can have as low as 1:8 or so. I can't say that a IT is the best choice here just because it may be there - in an emergency I may need to get out of a 200' driveway that can have 4'+ drifts across it out to an interstate that may be a mixture of hardpack with wind blasted dry areas and severe drifting spots. In powder conditions, there is no "getting on top of the snow with snow on snow traction". You have to dig and plow through.
I did this very thing last winter to test during a major blizzard, because my next door neighbor's 1 year old girl spiked a 105 degree fever and her dad was stuck at work and couldn't get home on his BFG AT's. Sometimes you can't wait for the plows and rescue can't get to you.
Ever seen a ground blizzard where it is sunny and windy after a major storm and the snow is blowing across the road like a blizzard when an hour earlier it was calm when you went to the mall in a pair of jeans? What tire do you choose when a 40" snowpack is readjusting itself under the guidance of a gale force wind and you just thought you were going to the mall?
The point is you can't make overly generic assumptions about any tire "because you get a lot of snow". Given most of us probably have an 80 series because we have a higher "self reliance" ethic than the average person, I think you choose a tire based on the problem you are trying to solve for the region in which you live.
Chains are fine, but a child spiking a fever in a blizzard who needs immediate medical attention doesn't provide you with chain up/chain down time going from major drifts to areas of wind blasted dry pavement. I turn my truck around before every blizzard so it is facing out, and lock the rear and CDL. I know for a fact that I can get out to the interstate - where the plows are running - through a 30" base with up to 4' drifts by doing nothing more than turning the ignition key (with a lot of throttle), and that is how I have chosen my tires.
I simply would not rely on a compact tread IT to do this, which has nothing to do with how good those tires are, but rather that in my analysis they don't fit my requirements and I could in fact go wrong by choosing them. My kids won't be small forever, and my "emergency sensitivity" won't always be this high, but for now this is why I consider to the Trxus MT to be the best possible winter tire for my usage, and that is why I run them.
Good idea to analyze your inputs and requirements if you are serious about your outputs.
Nay, that was terrific man, and because we basically live through the same scenarios really helps me here. Thanks mang.
Nay even though most falls in a maritime climate, being on the continental divide we also get a fair amount of snow down to -35*F. So basically we get the whole bag of tricks. The one thing we do not get alot of is drifting snow except out on the hwys east of us. I routinely drive through snow deeper than my bumpers and I have a 6" lift.
I would like to try the truxus MTs, they have always intrigued me.
I would like to try the truxus MTs, they have always intrigued me.
I'd love to try a large dedicated winter tire to compare. I think that is the most interesting comparison that has no experience based or empirical data points that I have seen: the siped MT vs. the winter tire.
How does a large size dedicated winter tire (at least 285's) compare to the same size highly siped soft compound MT across a variety of winter conditions from pure ice storm to offroad wheeling in an apline environment? I'm not talking about the BFG ST (Sled Tread) hard compound, but the sticky stuff that has about a 20K useful life...more or less the same as a dedicated winter tire.
There are a lot of points I have seen over the years, both in personal experience and from others, that show how much better a highly siped soft compound MT can be than at AT - better compound in freezing temps and far more directional siping (usually the siping is aftermarket on the inner lugs) with a design focus on lateral traction. Of course, if you consider a non-BFG AT that has advances in compound technology and tread design how do they match up? The Yoko AT is a silica compound now - that's a winter focus, how does it compare? And Revos are clearly a very good snow tire.
That's the problem - you can only get a test comparing winter tires, or all terrain tires, but you never get the test that addresses choosing a best in class tire from one class to a best in class tire of another class to see how much overlap you can get these days from two tires that would seem to have nothing to do with each other. An ice focused winter tire that can handle deep snow is a killer application. A hardcore rock crawling MT that can handle a reasonable degree of ice and all kinds of snow is a killer application. But how do they compare?
That's how you get to "where I live" answers, because I can take my trxus crawling in January and you can take your Yokos icing all winter long (and you have my envy
).
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Nay,
I think you're making a few assumptions that are incorrect but I applaud your desire to experiment with various combos. On your question of a more MT type tread with aftermarket sipes vs a modern dedicated tire I can cite experience a few years ago that comes close. My 80 had siped Kelly Safari DTRs (new) and my wife's' 80 had new Michelin Arctic Alpin 4X4s on it. In every day use on all manner of snow, ice, dry roads, wet roads, etc the Michelin won hands down. These are both locked and stock trucks. Messing around in deeper snow the Michelin still won though I would rather be on a trail with the Kellys because one hit on a hidden stump or rock and you'll be tearing the Michelin. One large advantage was cornering on snow or ice where the Kellys were worthless. About the only time I noted an advantage to the Kelllys was on that strange type of day where there's deep slushy snow the consistency of highly whipped mashed potatoes where the Michelins didn't seem to be able to evacuate the stuff where the big lugs of the Kellys did. But no question I'd take the Michelins. In fact, I sold the Kellys the next year in favor of the Revos now on my truck.
I think you give up more than you get with MT tires on snow, and I think many do not understand how amazing a set of dedicated snow tires are now because few are willing to deal with the cost and swaps to keep 2 sets.
I think you're making a few assumptions that are incorrect but I applaud your desire to experiment with various combos. On your question of a more MT type tread with aftermarket sipes vs a modern dedicated tire I can cite experience a few years ago that comes close. My 80 had siped Kelly Safari DTRs (new) and my wife's' 80 had new Michelin Arctic Alpin 4X4s on it. In every day use on all manner of snow, ice, dry roads, wet roads, etc the Michelin won hands down. These are both locked and stock trucks. Messing around in deeper snow the Michelin still won though I would rather be on a trail with the Kellys because one hit on a hidden stump or rock and you'll be tearing the Michelin. One large advantage was cornering on snow or ice where the Kellys were worthless. About the only time I noted an advantage to the Kelllys was on that strange type of day where there's deep slushy snow the consistency of highly whipped mashed potatoes where the Michelins didn't seem to be able to evacuate the stuff where the big lugs of the Kellys did. But no question I'd take the Michelins. In fact, I sold the Kellys the next year in favor of the Revos now on my truck.
I think you give up more than you get with MT tires on snow, and I think many do not understand how amazing a set of dedicated snow tires are now because few are willing to deal with the cost and swaps to keep 2 sets.
