97 40th Turbo Build

[sleeoffroad]

With Rick's MAF I've got more "resolution" - if you think of it like data and more "range" - also if you think of it like data. BUUUUT, my narrow band A/F gauge and my "narrow band" O2 sensors, and my "narrow band" (insert older technology of choice) cannot necessarily react quickly enough. I would however think that a knock sensor could, can someone confirm or deny that for me please?

Your knock sensor is not going to save you. Maybe this will http://www.jandssafeguard.com/monitors.html

Now what I would ask is if all my readings indicate a slightly rich condition not just at WOT but throughout the range of pushing the thing, is that a safe indicator or is it really no indicator at all?

How rich? If it is 10 you are flooding the motor (unlikely), 12, 13 ?? This is exactly my point. You have no idea without measuring it. All I can tell you is that when we did the tuning it is amazing the power difference when the truck runs to rich or just rig. At 12 it will bog down under boost, at 13 it comes allive.

I guess I would think that it is a good indicator that I'm in closed loop much more of the time (not all the time but even at open loop now the open loop is modified where many of the sensors are still reading - prior to this mod when I was in open loop it was realllly open loop and almost everything read ZERO's!)

What sensors read zero?

and that at any range of either WOT or getting to there quickly the rig stills seems to tend towards rich (as it always did) but it is not stinkin saturated rich like it always was at WOT. I think that my management is more efficient 99% of the time and I think that most would agree with that.

If you have seen these improvements with the MAF, why do you think there is not more to be made? It is better running to rich than to lean that is for sure and I think with the Safari you are probably safe.

What I'm trying to reconcile is risk associated with that 1% of pushing the thing. I think what Christo is saying is simply that the 1% can represent risk and that to monitor that the wideband is better. I agree. I think waht Rick is saying is that the data directs us to see the situation as almost always more accurately calibrated, and that at those rare times of open operation, still somewhat rich. I agree there as well.

You guys we all over a better temp gauge like flies around you know what, but you are nor prepared to monitor something much more important. People on mud go crazy when their temp goes from 190 to 200, and blame Toyota for a bad gauge, rip the truck apart to modify that etc etc, but are scared of a O2. Just don't get it Drive my chevy truck, it will go from 180 to 230 climbing hills with a trailer and back down again. Then you will be scared

 

[turbocruiser]

Internal thought process: "Holy Hell, Christo thinks that I'm arguing with him! That's about as stupid as mocking Dan's voodoo needles! "

Like I already wrote above, I just wanted to add some additional data, I'm not able to admirably argue about anything here; all I can do is respect the words and wisdom of the really experienced experts here. So consider all my thoughts as nothing more and nothing less than my thoughts. Maybe something that would help here is to send the recorded data runs between forced induction with stock MAF and forced induction with modded MAF. You guys can go and examine and evaluate all the data there and see if it is helpful here or not. For me its mute point because I'm gonna get the wideband and learn to really respond to it. But, for me it is also an interesting point because intuitively you feel the "seat of the pants" response combined with correlating data that suggests that things are much more measured with much more range and resolution for lack of correct techno terms and you think, "Hmm this thing is awesome." Anyways, Christo can I send some runs to you to look through? Tell us what it is and what it isn't and the argument that never was, will never be again!!! HUH?

 

[Cattledog]

This gauge is as easy to read as any out there, including stock gauges. http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=70 The damage does not always happen at WOT (Remember WOT is something like 75% throttle) and higher RPM.



I am not saying it will not work or that it does not work at closed loop. All I am saying is why are you guys so reluctant to monitor the truck?

All ready posted why. You supported that through your post of the 97 leaning out in about 100 yards. Plenty of damage was done in the first fifty yards. That is a very short time.


[quote/]It reports 33 lbs of air, but do you know where the fuel map ends?[/QUOTE]

Nope, don't want to know either. I dought a map is used at that range. I expect it is a fuel calculation.



[quote/]I do not see the relevance of this. If your truck is going lean in open loop it will detonate (you won't hear it) and the pistons will be melted way before the ECU figured out something is wrong.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think that your reactions are quicker 100% of the time than the ECU's?



I will have to dig up the number again. This is just from experience. 97 truck with stock MAF and if we do not add fuel in certain cases, the truck goes lean. Confirmed on dyno with wideband O2 and driving with wideband O2.

Melted a piston and eventually blew the headgasket. This happened in about 100 yards doing 80/90 mph on the way to Moab. This was not a customers truck, it was a friend that brought a Safari turbo back from Australia. Thought the truck was tuned properly and it was not.

Who tuned the truck?

The o2 sensors function is to get the truck to run as close to 14.7 as possible when in closed loop.

I dought that. The engine and ecu is set up for max torque in this application. That usually does not happen at 14.7. I usually is closer to 12.7 to 13.5.

[/QUOTE] http://www.forparts.com/BoswidebandO2.htm[/QUOTE]

I am all set with the reading.

 

[sleeoffroad]

It reports 33 lbs of air, but do you know where the fuel map ends?

Nope, don't want to know either. I dought a map is used at that range. I expect it is a fuel calculation.

It is all speculation, but in closed loop with feedback it is a map and using LTFT and STFT to adapt. There is empirical evidence that the truck knows the difference between 24lbs and 33 lbs, but I just suggest we use a wideband to see what is happening.

I do not see the relevance of this. If your truck is going lean in open loop it will detonate (you won't hear it) and the pistons will be melted way before the ECU figured out something is wrong.

Do you really think that your reactions are quicker 100% of the time than the ECU's?

Yes, if you are aware of where the danger spots are. In some of the cases, the computer will not act fast enough to add more fuel. In open loop it does not have feedback so it does not know it should add more fuel.

Who tuned the truck?

The owner in conjunction with a tuner shop in Denver. A simple wideband (that was not available for $250 then) would have told the owner to back out of it way sooner and could have saved the motor.

I dought that. The engine and ecu is set up for max torque in this application. That usually does not happen at 14.7. I usually is closer to 12.7 to 13.5.

No, that is closed loop operation, o2 sensor feedback to maintain a 14.7 AF ratio. See http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h44.pdf

or http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h58.pdf

 

[Cattledog]

It is all speculation, but in closed loop with feedback it is a map and using LTFT and STFT to adapt. There is empirical evidence that the truck knows the difference between 24lbs and 33 lbs, but I just suggest we use a wideband to see what is happening.

Suggesting is great I am all for it, buy a housing and dyno it with a wideband attached. I bet the housing and sensor will be cheaper than the piggyback system you are currently using.





[/quote]
Yes, if you are aware of where the danger spots are. In some of the cases, the computer will not act fast enough to add more fuel.[/quote]

Have you observed this on a obdII system while dataloging? If so please send me the datalog in a pm. I would like to see this.



[/quote]
The owner in conjunction with a tuner shop in Denver. A simple wideband (that was not available for $250 then) would have told the owner to back out of it way sooner and could have saved the motor.[/quote]
What were they using to tune? Was any datalogging being done?

There are a few ways the truck could have ran lean, stuck wastegate, fuel pump failure, ect. Any further info on the truck?

 

[sleeoffroad]

Yes, if you are aware of where the danger spots are. In some of the cases, the computer will not act fast enough to add more fuel.

Have you observed this on a obdII system while dataloging? If so please send me the datalog in a pm. I would like to see this.

I do not have data logs, but I have lots of roadmiles and dynoruns that showed this. This is not something you log. We use chassis ears attached to a knock sensor on the motor. Sit with earphones on and listed for the knocking as well as observing the wideband. I don't have to log it to see the wideband is going to 16:1 to know that is to lean.

The only feedback for running lean in OBDII is the o2 sensors. They are the most accurate around their center and accuracy decreases as you move away from the center. Rick's MAF is an upgrade for the stock one for exactly the same reasons. So why not rely on a more accurate feedback. This is like using a 32bit signal generator, but then samping with a 8 bit A/D generator and saying you can regenerate the whole signal. If that makes sense.

You can not just rely on waiting for the STFT or LTFT to tell you that you are running lean, especially in open loop. Also I spoke to both Rick and TurboCruiser today. We are going to log more data that actually logs the open loop/closed loop flag and not what they thought was open and closed loop.

The owner in conjunction with a tuner shop in Denver. A simple wideband (that was not available for $250 then) would have told the owner to back out of it way sooner and could have saved the motor.

What were they using to tune? Was any datalogging being done?

It was done on a dyno using the supplied fuel controller that Safari supplied. The truck was not a OBDII truck, so other that wideband on the dyno, no logging afterwards. This was 5 years ago. Widebands were not $300, otherwise we would have had one on the truck.

There are a few ways the truck could have ran lean, stuck wastegate, fuel pump failure, ect. Any further info on the truck?

It was none of that. It was a melted piston due to running lean. Fuel pump was fine, no stuck wastegate. Nothing other than not enough fuel. Just for the record, this was not one of our installs. It was just a friend that bought a Safari and installed it in our shop.

 

[MSGGrunt]

I took my longest drive, about 8 miles yesterday visiting the shop that will build my custom TIG welded stainless steel down pipe and all went well. The vehicle stalled once while turning into a gas station just after coming off throttle. The idle is not as rough as it was initially. I attribute that to the computer getting used to the added turbo. I still need to decide on which style of heat shield I want/need for the turbo. I am leaning towards the blanket/diaper style as discussed in my other post. If Uncle Sam lets me off early today I will take a trip to the salvage yard to source a recirculating bypass valve and a MAF sensor for Rick's improved MAF housing. Feel free to offer advice on my turbo heat shield post.

 

[Box Rocket]

I think I mentioned this before but the BOV's in Mitsubishi Evo's are a recirculating type. Lots of guys are "upgrading" to aftermarket ones so you could probably find loads of OEM Mitsubishi BOV's on ebay or something.

 

[MSGGrunt]

A longer test run with some 55 - 65 MPH speeds and all went well. EGT's never got above 1400 and the coolant temp stayed at 195. The truck runs as good as prior to the turbo just a whole lot more power.

Quick turbo question. I know it is a good idea to let the vehicle idle down after being driven, how long should I let it idle before shutting the truck off?

 

[Montana Cruiser]

A longer test run with some 55 - 65 MPH speeds and all went well. EGT's never got above 1400 and the coolant temp stayed at 195. The truck runs as good as prior to the turbo just a whole lot more power.

Quick turbo question. I know it is a good idea to let the vehicle idle down after being driven, how long should I let it idle before shutting the truck off?

I've always been told that 30 seconds at idle is sufficient .... I honestly can't remember if this was true of all types of Turbos or just ones in my Saabs which were water cooled.

 

[Dusty]

I let it idle until the egt's are 1000' or less. driving around town requires no cool down on mine. if im getting off the highway with 1500' + I may need a minute or more. if im on a roadtrip and pull into a gas station I will pop the hood at the pump as I start gassing and listen to my wife say "if you dont turn it off the truck will explode." truck never has exploded

it cools down faster with the water jacket

ps. dont let wife drive the turbo when you arn't in truck as women will let bearings cook rather than risk truck explosion or wait a few moments.

I just baught her a 100 series 2 weeks ago and she is never to drive the 80 again

 

[MSGGrunt]

Everything seems to be working well. I will be installing the BOV over the 4th holiday. One thing I am not happy with is the noise level coming from the open element air filter. I will be revisiting my idea of keeping the factory air cleaner, even if I have to modify it some or searching the slavage yard for something else that can be adapted. The whine of the turbo is a very satisfying sound, the loud sucking sound from the open air filter... well...... sucks.

 

[Cattledog]

Cool, glad to here is working well! At what rpm does the turbo start to build boost? You went with a p trim turbine right?

Thanks

 

[fj80psi]

I dunno how I missed this before. Nice Job on the install! Im excited about all the data logs & real time testing everyone is doing. What if any timing control are you guys running? I have a customer with a J&S knock sensor BTW. It is on a Honda, but it works well. I can really feel it take out timing on hot days. He has the poor stock 1.5l running 11psi on california 91 fuel. It was hard to get the J&S. It took him months due to low production. Really nice product though.

 

[MSGGrunt]

I picked-up the turbo heat shield today and I am very impressed with it. It is made by Turbonetics, the same company I bought my turbo from. It is a sandwich of stainless steel and ceramic. The shield is about 3/8" thick. I am glad that I went with this design over the plain steel shield. It appears, though I have no scientific proof, that it will work better than either a thin steel shield or the thick wraps that I have been convinced will hold heat upon shut down and possibly damage the turbo. I still need to find some springs, preferably stainless steel, to secure the shield to the turbine. The price of the shield at my local speed shop was $99.00 including shipping and I got it the next day.

 

[MSGGrunt]

Installed on the vehicle minus the spring retainers that I still have to source.

 

[MSGGrunt]

I also got the Bosch 110 BPV/BOV installed today. For more details see my BOV thread. A few pictures of the recirculating BPV installed.

 

[MSGGrunt]

I just discovered that I installed the BOV incorrectly (thanks Rick). The turbo starts to build boost around 2200 RPMs.

 

[Rookie2]

The turbo starts to build boost around 2200 RPMs.

Does that mean there really is no power gain until 2200 rpm and is that the way you sized and intended it?

Looks great.


Rookie2

 

[MSGGrunt]

I am by no means an expert on turbo mapping, boost, PSI, etc..., but the vehicle does have way more power at ALL RPMs. I have more power from a stop while taking off. The power comes on harder with greater throttle input. The truck prior to the turbo would kick-down into passing gear on the highway while going up a grade, this has yet to happen since the turbo install. The 2200 RPM number is on the highway travelling around 50 MPH under light throttle. As I slowly give it more throttle the turbo will start making boost around 2200 RPM. I'm sure someone with more knowledge of turbos can explain when a turbo will make boost given different loads on the engine.