92, 3FE running rich MISSOURI (1 Viewer)

[jcarter]

Running Rich Issue:
1. Air Filter is new and OEM.
2. New/Clean from last summer:
2a. Throttle body clean
2b. EGR stuff is new
2c. Injectors redone by Witchhunter.
2d. Head redone, new exhaust valves.
3. Exhaust no longer leaking before the O2 sensors (new full exhaust). O2 sensors look burnt up.

Possible Culprits:
1. AFM sensor - bought a used one last summer. Going to clean it.
2. Distributor - (2) magnetic sensor things. I gapped them last summer to spec. Checked ohms and within spec.
3. Throttle body gunk - had to make my own gasket somewhere in throttle body, used Indian Head to seal, maybe some Indian Head is gunking up something.
4. Fuel Pressure Regulator - Bought from you, but didn't put it in yet. Maybe I should start with that?
5. Fuel Pulsation Damper - Installed an aftermarket one from A-Zone to get it running. Bought OEM from you last summer but didn't put it in yet. Could this cause running rich? I don't think so, but maybe.
6. Throttle Position Sensor - Didn't mess with it but to take it off for cleaning and put it back on. I did some elec meter checking and in spec, I think. This is the ONLY not new thing that I think I should replace. $100 is worth the peace of mind to me.
7. Vacuum? I didn't replace all the little vacuum hoses, but didn't see any leaks and none were blocked off. Maybe I should replace these?
8. Valve Adjustment: Did it for my first time. Sounds "valvie", loud. I'm going to redo it when I retighten my headbolts. Before this, I'm going to check cylinder pressure, if pressure is good, then valves shouldn't be the culprit, right?

Gotta get back to work. Ready for Jon Held to rip me a new one. . . . .

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[CJF]

Gotta get back to work. Ready for Jon Held to rip me a new one. . .

Replacement of O2 sensors seems like a glaring omission from the work you've done.

 

[cpcc]

How is the timing? Advance it and see what happens. Same thing happened to me.
Though, I live in the same county as you so maybe there is something in our gas

 

[jonheld]

What makes you say it's running rich?
Are you getting codes?

The ECU uses a combination of O2 sensors, intake air temp sensor and coolant temp sensor to trim the A/F mix.
O2 sensors have a lifespan and can drastically effect how the motor runs. I'm pretty certain we discussed this before.

If any sensor was faulty and giving readings outside of the ECUs window, a code would pop up.

The distributor coils will effect your base timing, but as long as you followed the FSM to set your base timing correctly you should be fine.

Since both the FPR and FPD have diaphragms in them and they both sit on a pressurized fuel rail directly above the exhaust manifold, I would only use brand new OEM replacements.

A good running 3FE sounds like ball bearings in a blender. Certainly go back and check valve clearances again, but don't think for a minute you'll make it quiet. The injectors are LOUD and often mistaken for valve slap.

If the soft vacuum lines appear to be OK, you must also check the hard lines. They tend to clog with crap over the years and if the EGR valve and EGR modulator are original, I'd bet they spewed their guts into the vacuum system years ago.

Don't forget to look for the silly things like the gasket in the oil fill cap, the gasket in the oil dipstick, the side cover gasket, PCV valve gasket, valve cover grommets, etc. Any one of these leak points will make the motor run like crap. The top end must be sealed.

 

[jcarter]

Thanks for the responses. Here's some info:

NEW O2 and TPS: The post was actually part of an email to CDan when ordering new O2 sensors and TPS. Main reason is everything else that can wear out after 21 years is basically new. So they are on their way.

Timing: Timed it to spec. When you say advance it, that's clockwise on the dizzy, right?

Running Rich: No codes. 7.5 mpg and black stuff in the tailpipe. I ball honed the cylinders and replaced the rings last summer. Someone told me too much gas (running rich) "wash out the cylinders and rings won't seat properly". Don't know if that's true, but don't want to have to tear into it again anytime soon.

Vacuum leak: Good point Jon. Is there a trick to figure out if something is leaking? I have new gaskets on side cover, valve cover, etc. What if I dab oil around these areas and see if vacuum sucks it into the valve cover?

Small hoses/tubes: Small metal tubes were really bad, I soaked them down with B12 over a few nights to clear, blew threw each to make sure, could blow threw them, but a lot of resistance. Just thought of this, can you buy new ones? I'm talking about the set of 5 or so thin tubes that run from the PS near EGR stuff then around back of air plenum. By the way, EGR stuff is new too.

ECU logic:

1. O2 sensors coming.
2. Intake air temp, is this part of the AFM? I'll clean it out today to see if it helps.
3. Coolant temp. I'll need to find this sensor. Idiot gauge goes to mid point and stays. BTW, new radiator and hoses.

To conclude, it runs well compared to before last summer's project. Starts up good. Really smooth idle. After new exhaust, quicker from stopped. But I'm afraid something is wrong and I'm hurting my work especially since gas mileage went from 12 down to 7.5.

Transmission kind of sucks, sorry for my ignorance, I'm not sure how many gears it has, is it 4 plus overdrive or just 4? Anyways, it doesn't like to be in the 2nd to fastest or one before overdrive. Up a hil on the interstate goes from O/D at 2K rpm, up-shifts to 3K rpm just for a moment, then up-shifts to near 4K rpm. Sorry, I digress. As long as the transmission is moving the vehicle, it's all good.

 

[jonheld]

The A440F transmission has 4 gears with a torque converter lock up around 45 MPH. The TC lockup is often mistaken for a 5th gear or overdrive.

If the transmission is having issues then your MPG calculations go right out the window. They can no longer be reliable numbers.

The thermostat housing has a temp sender for the dash gauge and a temp sensor that the ECU uses. 2 Different animals. The intake air temp sensor is in the AFM and I believe there is a test for it in the FSM. Alternatively you could try swapping in a known good AFM as a test. Any 3FE AFM will work.

 

[jcarter]

some progress, more coming

Transmission: It revs just a bit between first and second, but its done that for a years. Bad thing is it seems to go from TC lock-up down to 3rd when running up a hill on the interstate. I need to either let it slow down to 50mph/2000rpm or speed up to 60 mph/4000rpm, I usually leave it slow.

Parts and AFM clean: Parts still coming. One of the 02 sensors is no longer available per Cdan, says it's just a wire length difference so I'm getting 2 of the same and will extend wires if needed (fyi). Hopefully O2's, TPS, FPR, and clean AFM this weekend. No spares around and don't see many 90-92 land cruisers around which is why I'm on the MUD so much.

Oil Pressure: Ordered an adapter (Auto Meter 2269) from Amazon and checked the oil pressure with a borrowed gauge from a neighbor that only went to 60 psi. It went over 60 in idle, so oil pressure should be good. I was concerned about this since I can't remember tightening stuff when put new oil pump in.


Timing: I did advance my timing just a bit. Idle when from 650 to 800. Can't really tell the difference, still think it's running rich.

After next round of work, I'll run a tank through and report back in a couple of weeks.

 

[Michael Hanson]

Hi, Hook up a vacuum gauge and see what you read.Your valves are loud ? Mine are quiet with 330,000 miles, might want to look at that again. Mike

 

[jonheld]

If its flaring between shifts it sounds like the transmission kickdown cable needs to be adjusted slightly.
Adjust the throttle cable FIRST (throttle pedal to the floor, throttle should just be touching the endstop) THEN adjust the transmission kickdown cable to the proper length.

Also, it seems that your RPMs are way higher than they should be with stock gears and 31" tires. 60 MPH should be around 3K RPM in 3rd gear. 4K RPM in 3rd is over 70 MPH and close to REDLINE.

In 4th gear, the torque converter should lock/unlock around 45 MPH.

 

[82much]

I have kinda the same issue. Idle is not consistant and niether is my MPG.

 

[Alleycats]

Running rich? What's your mpg?

What indication do you have that your running rich?

 

[82much]

I don't know if I am running rich but my idle fluctuates.
Some days its normal @650rpms. Some days its high, low, rough. At times its rough then I stop for about an hour, then it runs great.
My gas milage also fluctuates.

 

[jcarter]

commentary

Gas mileage: Before I did a bunch of stuff to it last summer, it was consistently about 12 mpg. Last tank was 7.5 mpg. Earlier this winter it got about 6 mpg, had an exhaust leak at the manifold, splurged and put a new exhaust system in it (EMS Powered). Obviously, this didn't do anything.

Vacuum gauge: Never used one. What would that do? I pulled some small hoses on DS and has good suction. Idle increased when I pulled them off and blocked the vacuum. I think this has to do with the EGR cancelling using BB's trick I've been eyeballing on the MUD.

Running Rich: How do you tell? I've got black crap in my tailpipe, it "feels bogged down" a bit, and the MPG. No codes!

Transmission and rpm: Maybe I was off a bit. All I know is there is a 2nd to highest gear it's missing. A whole different story, shouldn't have brought it up.

Quiet valves: Adjusting the valves is a job! I need to retorque the headbolts soon, so I'll do that then. I believe around 500 miles after you redo the head you're supposed to retorque the bolts and I'm only around 300 miles.

Inconsistent Idle: I'd put some seafoam through it and see if it helps or B12. If not, do fuel, it's pretty easy.

A few pics of new stuff

 

[jcarter]

Correction: "Fuel Filter" it's pretty easy.

 

[jcarter]

It's the timing!

I had the timing perfect per the FSM: Warmed up, had the TE1 E1 shorted, idling at 650 RPM, and put that sucker right over the big dot downstream from the two little dots. Earlier in this thread, a fellow St. Louis guy says TIMING. Easiest thing to do so i adjusted it. . .

NO timing light, engine warmed up, NO TE1 E1 shorted, loosened bolt and twisted just a tad clock-wise making the RPMs go up just a bit. It idles now at 850 RPM. This was a couple of weeks ago.

Today, I was dying to get out on the river (it's a Missouri thing). Went about 100 miles since last gas fill up, so I figured I'd fill it up before I left just in case, especially since I was only getting 7.5 MPG. Took 9 gallons, so 100 miles/9G=11MPG. That's near 50% better!

So, I think the factory timing is a bit retarded purposely to reduce emissions.

Yesterday, I got the O2 sensors on and it runs a lot better. Old ones were black as heck.

Tomorrow I'm going to clean the AFM and check the compression just out of curiosity.

Thanks for the tip CPCC!

Joe

 

[NKP Garage]

the old O2 sensors and your timing are going to show big gains in your MPG. Also, check for any vacuum leaks in the piping between the AFM and the throttle body. May also be worth checking for vacuum leaks at the throttle body gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, injector o-rings, etc... anything that air passes through.

 

[cpcc]

Now that you got the timing set, you can adjust the idle speed with a screw driver and get it where you want. Placing a separator after you pcv valve will also save you some intake gunk. Stop by one day and we can check things over if you have any questions.
Cheers