80 Series Electrical Limitations with an inverter.

[Romer]

EDIT: I have decided to buy a cheaper generator for the RV, but the original question still remains as to what are the limitations of the 80 series when wiring an inverter to power other electronics. Rather than delete the thread I am deleteing refrence to the camper question (drive the camper with the 80 for short ter stuff) and leaving this thread to explore the limitations and capabilities of the 80's electrical system.


I have a dual battery setup.

I guess what I really want to do is turn my 80 into a 2000 Watt generator and I want to know what the limitations are. Assume there is an engel plugged in as well.

The why stop at a 2000 Watt inverter. What can an 80 do?

Anyone look into this already? Nakman?

 

[Cube Dweller]

Ken, I'm working on it now. Bought a cheap 2000W continuous 4000W surge inverter Friday from Harbor Freight. Yes, I know, HF, cheap a$$ made in China crap, but it will match the $35 hecho'd in China, 600W microwave I bought at Target tonight. I ordered the relo kit from Slee and a '91 battery tray from CDan. Now looking at your thread on isolators. Thinking I will go w/ the Hellroaring, run the inverter off the 2nd, deep cycle battery using welding lead, and place a 250A fuse in line w/ the inverter.

My plan is to use it primarily to run the microwave and as a backup generator for my home freezer should we lose power.

Edit: By printing out the online sale price ($149 down from $199) and using a 20% off coupon I was out the door for like $130).

 

[Cube Dweller]

If I understand the Hellroaring unit correctly, the inverter will only "see" the deep cycle battery, so any noise would RFI, right? Not sure what this would affect if I mounted the inverter in the cargo area?

 

[cruiserdan]

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a 4K generator for 600 bucks and make a mount to carry it on the pop-up.

 

[lovetoski]

Anyone look into this already? Nakman?

This is common in boats. The WestMarine guys are pretty helpful with info. Calc what watts you need, choose an inverter that corresponds. Prolly best to build in a margin.

I have an 800/1600 watt inverter in my 60. Lots of uses for it and it works great - it was the primary reason I did a dual battery install.

 

[Romer]

Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a 4K generator for 600 bucks and make a mount to carry it on the pop-up.

Problem with the a lot of the generators is noise. They are loud and that would mean I couldn't use it in a camp ground. But then again if I didn't run it all the time that would still be OK. There are 3000 watt loud generators for around $200-$300. Now that I am thinking about it, I would be hooked to AC in campgrounds so the noise shouldn't be a big issue as I would only run it when I need it. I may go that route with a cheaper generator on ebay.

Neverthless, I still think this is a worthwhile 80 series question on designing the limitations of the electrical system and how you could use it.

Questions being:
How large an inverter could you effectively drive?
How long could you run it at what wattage with the rig off?
How long could you run it at what wattage with the rig on?
What kind of wiring and connections issues are there for this type of set-up.

If you are going to do this, I think you should assume that you have a dual battery setup, but only use one battery in this question.

 

[Zreego]

I'm wondering how long you could run something this (and how much you could run it before it drains everything) presuming a dual battery set up and an engel:

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=449

This one's just a plug and use set-up.

 

[Romer]

Now thats an inverter. You'd think that plugging into a cig lighter would put too much load on then thin high gauge wire thats used. At least an 8 Gauge wire would be better.

 

[7P's]

I've never heard of a high wattage inverter plugging into a cig lighter, so I just contacted Wagan at 800 231 5806 in hopes that they discovered an electrical miracle of sorts but much to my chargin it was not so. They advised that it will not plug into a cig lighter. I think I might consider a 2 gauge hookup - a little hard to work with but ----.

 

[hoser]

From what little I know, that 3k watt inverter would definitely NOT work through your common cigarette lighter. You can plug a 400 watt inverter into the cig adapter but the output would be limited to about 150 watt, at least that is what my manual says. To run the 3K inverter, you would need something more like 3/0 or 4/0 cables (given a 16 foot run). Those are huge. Consider mounting the battery in the rear. It is better to extend the AC output side rather than the DC input side.

 

[Zreego]

Yeah, I confused the above inverter with another that does in fact plug in---it sounded a bit fishy to me too. So what is the highest one can plug into a lighter? And for example, what can you run off it? A laptop? I have to admit, things of an electrical nature have always confused me a bit. I guess that's why I'm in the Humanities...

 

[Romer]

I was assuming that an inverter would have a direct wire to at least a fuse block with at least 6 or 8 gauge wire.

 

[hoser]

Zreego, let me rephrase that, you can plug almost any inverter into the cigarette plug but your output will be limited by the cigarette's power cable and fuse. Trying to run a large inverter on your our little cigarette lighter wiring can be dangerous. My LX470 says the cigarette adapter is limited to 120 watts.

I found a link that shows estimated power consumption of popular appliances.

Here's the estimated cable sizes needed for your inverter.

 

[Zreego]

Zreego, let me rephrase that, you can plug almost any inverter into the cigarette plug but your output will be limited by the cigarette's power cable and fuse. My LX470 says the cigarette adapter is limited to 120 watts. Each vehicle is different.

I found a link that shows estimated power consumption of popular appliances.

Here's the estimated cable sizes needed for your inverter.

Hoser thanks for the clarification---I get it now.

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

I have a costco-sourced Xantrex 1500W/3000W inverter. My circular saw needs to have the blade spinning in order for it to kick on(i.e. pull the trigger, hold up the guard and roll the blade on the wood and it comes on) and will bog down and trip the inverter protection circuit at times. I really haven't investigated further as to whether it's the inverter not being able to handle the saw, or the cruiser not putting out enough juice and the inverter going into protection mode. BTW, that's with the inverter connected directly to the battery with jumper cables(it works for now until I can figure out a permanent place to mount it).

Edit: Just went and looked at the saw, and it says it draws 11.0 amps at 120V, so I think the truck must not be producing enough power since the saw should only be drawing 1320W.

 

[97 FZJ80]

Arya, I think the problem in your setup is the jumper cables. I've tried using jumper cables with my microwave, and the circuit kept resetting on the inverter. With a permanent wire setup, the microwave runs just fine.

The jumper cable must not have very good connections with the clawed jaws clamps.

 

[hoser]

Arya, according to that chart I posted, even your jumper cables are probably not sufficient for your inverter.

 

[Romer]

Excellent link hoser. That answered a lot of questions. Here is another snipet out of that link. So, you size the wire to your inverter, that's a given with any wiring job. If you plan on using the inverter with the truck on, the max you would want in (Alt -20amps), would be a 60AMP load to not risk burning out the alt, or a 600 Watts steady current. Peak/surge current can be higher, but prolonged current should be below 600 Watts with the engine on.
With the engine off, the size should be determined by the battery and how long to drain.

All this said, the typical use would not be a long prolonged item running. Power tools and other items running at higher than 600 watts in shorter duty cycles are probably fine.

The above are my thoughts, feel free to poke holes in them.

To determine how long a typical battery will last we need to find the amp/hour rating of the battery. The cold cranking amps or CCA rating is only a number to compare manufacturers batteries. Somewhere on the battery labeling there should be a "reserve minutes" specification. Simply times the "reserve minutes" number by .3 to get an amp/hour rating for the battery.

For example; What is the amp/hour of a battery with 100 reserve minutes?
100 x .3 = 30 amp/hours​

How long will a battery last?
A 300 watt inverter providing 150 watts connected to a fully charged 100 reserve minutes battery will last approximately 2 hours. To determine the power the inverter needs from the battery click here. 15 amps/30 = 2 hours



A major consideration when installing large inverters (500 Watts and higher) is the charging system. The charging system must be able to keep ahead of the current drain from the inverter plus the drain of the remaining systems in the vehicle.
Normal vehicle alternators range from 65 to 90 amps. For example a 1500 watt inverter supplying power to a 1000 watt appliance requires 100 amps from the battery. With the vehicle's alternator rated at 90 amps, this is a 10 amp drain for the battery. Using the above battery, the car will be dead within 3 hours! Not only will the car be dead but the alternator may burn out because it was trying to recharge the battery at its full output. Alternators do not like to work full out.
A larger alternator, at least 20 to 30 amps more than what's needed will be required to keep the battery charged. A 110 or 120 amp alternator would be required in this application. If the 1500 watt was used at its continuous rating a 170 to 180 amp alternator is needed.​

 

[hoser]

Also, an alternator rated at 90 amps only puts out a fraction of that at idle. We're going to need to hook up a fast idle switch now too. Set it at 4500rpm!

 

[Tapage]

A 110 or 120 amp alternator would be required in this application. If the 1500 watt was used at its continuous rating a 170 to 180 amp alternator is needed.[/INDENT]

It means max 500 amp inverter in a single bat setup with stock alternator . ?