If you just compare specs, like the resistance, the Blaster and Flame Thrower coils are just like the ballast resistor coil, except they run without the resistor. The only coil I have ever seen fail was a "high performance" coil that overheated and puked out its insulating oil.
'77 FJ40 - Ignition Coil replacement?
- Thread starter GA Architect
- Start date
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Is that what the resistor does? Prevents the coil from overheating?
Here are some views from the FSM -
The old-style starter, showing the connection to the coil when it's engaged. I don't have a schematic for the new GR starter, but it doesn't have that extra terminal.
Then the different coil setups. Notice that the Non-USA coil has no external resistor - this is probably the way yours would have been originally. It also doesn't show the line coming from the starter, so maybe that was always a USA-only thing. The "ignitor type" which would have been for the USA after '76 ('75?) shows the line from the starter coming in and bypassing the external resistor.
I've run: the ignitor system (my rig's original configuration) with the old-style starter; just the coil and resistor (harder on points) with the old starter connection installed; just the coil and resistor with the GR starter; and now a "flamethrower" coil that requires a resistor with the GR starter and an electronic "no points" system. Honestly the GR starter is so much more effective and different from the old starter that I don't really have a good read on whether or not the lack of unresisted current to the coil makes a difference. They all have worked.
By the way, there are two types of "Flamethrower" coils apparently, just as there are two types of generic or OEM coils - the one I received clearly states that it requires an external resistor. This makes sense, as its measured resistance was similar to that of an OEM coil - it would require more resistance to get it into the 2.6-4.0 Ohm range that the FSM specs. I don't remember the number now, but I verified with a multimeter that it was a "resistor required" unit when I installed it.
The old-style starter, showing the connection to the coil when it's engaged. I don't have a schematic for the new GR starter, but it doesn't have that extra terminal.
Then the different coil setups. Notice that the Non-USA coil has no external resistor - this is probably the way yours would have been originally. It also doesn't show the line coming from the starter, so maybe that was always a USA-only thing. The "ignitor type" which would have been for the USA after '76 ('75?) shows the line from the starter coming in and bypassing the external resistor.
I've run: the ignitor system (my rig's original configuration) with the old-style starter; just the coil and resistor (harder on points) with the old starter connection installed; just the coil and resistor with the GR starter; and now a "flamethrower" coil that requires a resistor with the GR starter and an electronic "no points" system. Honestly the GR starter is so much more effective and different from the old starter that I don't really have a good read on whether or not the lack of unresisted current to the coil makes a difference. They all have worked.
By the way, there are two types of "Flamethrower" coils apparently, just as there are two types of generic or OEM coils - the one I received clearly states that it requires an external resistor. This makes sense, as its measured resistance was similar to that of an OEM coil - it would require more resistance to get it into the 2.6-4.0 Ohm range that the FSM specs. I don't remember the number now, but I verified with a multimeter that it was a "resistor required" unit when I installed it.
Thanks to both of you. I agree that the non-USA "old" starter is different and that is what prompted my call to American AutoWire as I didn't have the terminal you and they showed. So once the new engine is in and the car put back together I will look at using the gear reduction starter and keep my ballast resistor, since it is working just fine.
GA Architect
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- Thread starter
- #26
That is way I've been running mine. Below is the diagram of the starter/coil/dizzy wiring on my rig.
Ok, OK, OK.....goodness
SO, I'm dealing with ignition issues myself, and have no problem buying parts to get it back on the road. I don't care if the parts are stock or not.
It can't be that difficult, but so much conflicting info.
Is the ignitor needed? What does it do? I've read all the threads I can find on the subject, and some people run the stock setup, some run a different coil (12V vs 6V?) some run everything BUT the ignitor....some run it hot wired bypassing everything but the coil (I tried that, but ren very poorly....thats why I want to try a different coil) Yet, everyone seems to say that their setup works great.
My issue is that I want to bypass as much as I can but still be reliable. Is it possible to get a 12V coil, bypass the external resistor, ignitor/no ignitor? and keep the points in my stock 1977 distributor? I was thinking about going the Pertronix route, but is the ignitor needed with that? Is there a unique coil that has to be run the the Pertronix conversion?
For my troubleshooting....will any aftermarket 12V coil work with my stock 1977 ignition system? What can I bypass with a new 12V coil? What damage am I causing with no ignitor? Will it even run? Burn up points?
Thanks for all the help.
SO, I'm dealing with ignition issues myself, and have no problem buying parts to get it back on the road. I don't care if the parts are stock or not.
It can't be that difficult, but so much conflicting info.
Is the ignitor needed? What does it do? I've read all the threads I can find on the subject, and some people run the stock setup, some run a different coil (12V vs 6V?) some run everything BUT the ignitor....some run it hot wired bypassing everything but the coil (I tried that, but ren very poorly....thats why I want to try a different coil) Yet, everyone seems to say that their setup works great.
My issue is that I want to bypass as much as I can but still be reliable. Is it possible to get a 12V coil, bypass the external resistor, ignitor/no ignitor? and keep the points in my stock 1977 distributor? I was thinking about going the Pertronix route, but is the ignitor needed with that? Is there a unique coil that has to be run the the Pertronix conversion?
For my troubleshooting....will any aftermarket 12V coil work with my stock 1977 ignition system? What can I bypass with a new 12V coil? What damage am I causing with no ignitor? Will it even run? Burn up points?
Thanks for all the help.
I purchased a distributor from MAF (I think it is the same that Marshall at Trollhole sells) when I bought the 6-1 header a couple of years ago. While I did install the distributor this past February the header was not installed until just a couple of weeks ago, along with new intake manifold and Trollhole carburetor. I completely rewired my rig, it was a mess before. I installed AutoMeter gauges and used an American Autowire Hwy 15 wiring harness. At that time I also bought a Taylor-Vertex ignition coil and Mallory ballast coil from Summit Racing. The coil is the off road epoxy filled unit, 45,000 volts. I have had zero issues with this setup. The coil has been in use for over a year. I do not have any problems with the points. Use of a dwell meter for setting the points is a must. The FSM settings for point gap, in my experience, provide for inadequate dwell. For instance, the old F motor specification was .016-.018 with dwell at 38-41*. Once I received my dwell meter from the USA (couldn't find one anywhere down here) I checked my .018 point setting and had 23* dwell. I find that with that distributor I have to set the points at .012 to get 40*. With the new 2F motor I set the points at .008 to get 41* dwell which is the spec, no range. I drove down to Guayaquil (sea level) from Cuenca (8,440 ft) last weekend. Last year with the old motor, 1 bbl carburetor, I had to stop a few times and retard the timing because of pinging. This trip I noticed some slight pinging down low but just feathered the throttle and was fine, I did not adjust the timing. Before I was getting 9-10 mpg, had to use 1st & 2nd gear to negotiate the mountains. This trip I got 16 mpg and used only 2nd & 3rd gear to manage the mountains.
Oh crap! Running like a top, and running like a top when I came home yesterday and parked it. Several hours later when I go to pick up my wife, it won't start. Wife gets home and I have her crank it, no spark at the plug, no spark at the coil. It is getting dark and I decide to wait until morning to mess with it. The first two tries I told the wife to turn it off, she did, key in the off position. The third time I tell her to turn it off, I didn't check, key in "run" position, battery dead as a doornail this morning. It has been on charge all day, still in the 25% range but I disconnected the wires to the coil for ohm check. If you check post #17 in this thread you will see the primary resistance listed as .700 ohm and the secondary as 4.70K ohms. The primary checks .6-.7, good. The secondary checks 9.70K! Yikes. I will "presume" that means something is bad in the coil? I checked the ballast resistor, per spec. I checked the hot wire to the coil with key on, 12.70 volts (battery still charging) so all seems good there. Looks like I have a toasted coil, frustrating, 15 months, 11,000 miles.
If you've got a fresh set of points around, you might give them a try before condemning the coil, just in case. When I toasted one it went to 0 Ohms, i.e. a short. But that's certainly not the only way they could fail. After ignition on all night, you may need points even if the old ones started out as good.
We were on the same page. But it always feels good to hear from someone else thinking the same thing. I called Taylor-Vertex in KC just before 5:00 yesterday and told the fellow what my numbers were. He said that while they were indeed high, he wasn't sure what a coil would read after fifteen months use. But he didn't think it should be a problem. So, like you, I turned my attention to the points. When the 1983 2F engine was installed I had instructed that they use my distributor, which was new installed in February. They said the distributor was fine and used the one that was in it. I noted that I lost my convenient wing screw for clamping, different arrangement on the 2F vs the F. I had purchased a new clamp way back, but didn't need it. But what I didn't like about this distributor was that the condenser was set up inside the cap. My MAF provided distributor had the condenser mounted to the vacuum canister securing screw. The difference is huge when it comes to adjusting the points, nearly impossible with the condenser over the adjusting slot. Since the battery was still charging I installed my old/new distributor after checking the points on the bench. This morning it fired up, sort of. Installing the distributor there is no way to know where the timing is set and it was way retarded (no pun intended, maybe). So I let it warm up, set the timing, checked the dwell to be spot on and it idles just fine. Pretty weird that points would go just like that. Oh well, I was cleaning the shop yesterday all day anyway
. That's for offering an opinion, hope it helps someone else down the line. Lenny.
. That's for offering an opinion, hope it helps someone else down the line. Lenny.
GA Architect
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- #33
As long as you are just replacing the coil and still using the ballast resistor, yes that one will work. The one in your photo is actually the same one I replaced with an old OEM coil.
Awesome. Thanks for the help!
@GA Architect and @tractor Doc. The OEM unit was still available for my ‘78. I believe it requires no ballast resistor due to the resistive type wire Toyota used that year. Question along these lines: If I was to upgrade my starter to the new and fancy gear reduction unit would I have to bypass that wire??? I have the old style starter that sounds like my fathers old 8N tractor turning over but faster as it is 12V not the 6V system like the 8N. Funny because they really are both tractors if you think about it!
On my '79 with an '83 2F and old starter I still run the ballast. The new starter (which I have one of) doesn't have a place for the wire, however, there are links on Mud for how to get around that and still run the ballast. Apparently it makes points last longer.
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The 78-80 coil & ignitor does use a ballast resistor. It is a length of resistor wire in the harness between ignition switch & coil.
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The 02113 coil is for 81-87 w/ no ballast and electronic ignition. It is not a direct substitute for the ballasted 75-77 semi-electronic coil.
