Events/Trails 4th Annual 200LCDC Event

[M1911]

I think this is exactly why it hasn't been too much of an issue so far. I certainly can't imagine anyone in this fine group lobbing a legal law bomb our way as planners. In exploring the matter a couple cases that have come up before include family members/distant relatives suing events or legal action being taken by bystanders or non-event participants. Even though there are no jeeps in the group, there may still be some on the trail that are impacted by our shenanigans. In any case, this is not the kind of stuff we want folks to worry about on vacation.

If someone rolled their rig off a shelf road and died as a result, it would not surprise me if their estate filed suit. The likelihood of that happening is low, but the impact upon the defendants would be large.

I don’t know the cost of such liability insurance. I carry an umbrella policy that I believe would cover me in such an occurrence, provided that I was an unpaid volunteer.

 

[TonyP]

Something like that is happening here in Utah. A civilian plane crashed on I15 right outside the base with four passengers, all died. The family of two of the passengers are suing the estate of the other two (who owned the plane). So the dead, suing the dead. Essentially a cash grab.

 

[Canyonero]

@indycole brings up a great point about liability. As soon as you call someone "trail leader", "event planner" or any other title, there is a higher possibility for a lawsuit.

I'd prefer that we have a basic waiver that drivers sign. The waiver could basically say, "this is not an event. no one here is responsible for anything that may happen to you, your invitees or your vehicle. you assume all responsibility for you, your vehicle, your occupants, etc." -- obviously this is a crude version of it, but I think this as a single requirement could shield the LCDC (which is an informal gathering of people who have the same truck who are interested in exploring parts of the US together) from one rogue attendee who rolls their truck and decides to lawyer up and see who they can sue.

As far as destinations go, I think Moab and/or greater Utah sound great. We've actually never done this, despite having smaller "pre-run" groups each year that have run trails.

We could even combine something like the Kokopelli Trail (which starts near Grand Junction, CO and ends in Moab, UT) as a 150 mile off-road expedition aspect to the LCDC for people interested in something along those lines. Possibly spreading out what may be a very large group into a much larger set of trails, with evening dinners and whatnot sounds good to me.

 

[M1911]

My limited understanding is that such waivers often do not provide much protection. They aren’t a bad idea, but they aren’t a replacement for liability insurance.

 

[RET2]

I'm liking the back and forth, good things usually come of open exchange of ideas. The trick seems to be finding a "destination" with enough trails of various types/difficulty close by. Throw in a overnighter on the trail for the camping types ( rumor has it Markuson does a killer venison steak with S'Mores for desert)

 

[Markuson]

Worst thing is to have one of the LCDC team burnout from dealing with something that may be evolving beyond expectations. Doubt the magnitude of what is was ever expected.

Its about having a low stress break from everyday reality. Thats what this years moab pre-funk will be again.

This is what I was pondering earlier. Hopefully we don't create a monster that is too overwhelming for organizers to also enjoy.

I'd really like to hear @codyaustin5 's perspective.

 

[mcgaskins]

This brings up one of the fundamental questions we'll all need to think through regarding the evolution of the event. I believe the intention has been to keep the event inclusive, flexible, welcoming, etc. such that someone could easily join up until just shortly before the event starts. One challenge there is that it makes it tough to plan because the numbers are always changing (and growing, which is definitely cool).

With a growing event you eventually end up with some interesting liability questions. They do the rig inspection at Cruise Moab because it's mandated by TLCA-sanctioned events because the TLCA provides liability insurance for the event via the clubs who sponsor and the individuals who attend the event (who also have to be part of TLCA). No one wants to be running trails thinking about the liability ramifications of some unforeseen event, so planning for such things to give folks -- especially trail leaders -- peace of mind on the trail is important. Once an event is formalized and gets large enough the liability question definitely must be addressed and it's something we're looking at. There are a few ways to approach it 1.) do nothing and cross your fingers, 2.) keep the event exclusive, small, and informal, 3.) charge participants a fee to cover liability insurance, 4.) grow the event to enough people that vendors/sponsors/etc. can chip in or cover the event with their own policy, or 5.) formalize this group as a TLCA-sponsored club and use their coverage for the event. It's worth noting that asking folks to sign waiver / release of liability isn't really enough protection.

Enough fine print... on another topic I like how the locations have been true "destinations" in the sense that there's enough to do in the surrounding area for families and non-trail activities. Most places that have been seriously considered have a compelling home base.

The roaming trips are definitely attractive for a subset of us (myself included) but they wouldn't work for everyone. It'd be cool to have some unofficial LCDC-Nomad trips (Baja anyone?) throughout other parts of the year.

I completely agree with everything you said. The question is at what point is the "right size" to start getting things like liability insurance put in place? I think we had over 40 trucks in Breck and most had 2-3 occupants which means 100+ individuals with varying experience and ability were out doing some things that could potentially be very dangerous if you make a mistake. That means even something as simple as a slip and fall. I had a friend visit me from California once in the early winter, and we went out with the local LC club to do a trail run. She showed up in these slick bottomed fancy Coach rain boots, and when she got out of my truck to pee she slipped on ice and got a NASTY gash in her knee that required stitches. The vast majority of people would not blame the event or organizers, but there is always the possibility someone would want to sue if they were injured or killed.

Regarding the options, (1) is not ideal (2) keeping it exclusive and small goes against the come as you are LCDC ethos (3) makes a ton of sense to me (4) would be a lot of work for the organizers and put an inordinate amount of financial support on small vendors like Slee (5) good idea but would have to determine how onerous that process is. Personally I like the idea of charging participants a fee to cover insurance, rental for the gathering spaces if necessary, and potentially building a reserve for things like cleaning up after the event, future events, etc.

Everyone loves a small, intimate group of enthusiasts getting together and doing something special, but the reality is that if it's super cool more people want in. When the group size grows beyond a certain point, it makes sense to put protections in place for the event organizers, sponsors and participants, so the question is whether LCDC has reached that point. If the group grows again next year which undoubtedly it will, I think it's at that point. We have enough engaged people here to assist with putting things together to reduce the strain on just a handful of organizers, and non-local people can do things like inquiring on permits and renting gathering replaces remotely via the phone or internet. I think it would enable everyone (particularly those who are risk averse like me!) enjoy themselves more knowing there's a little more framework and legal protection around the event. It's great it's been so popular it keeps growing, and we all appreciate the hard work that the planners have put into it the last few years!

 

[M1911]

While 40 rigs signed up, I believe only 29 actually showed up. I think charging a fee to register is a good idea. That fee could be applied to the cost of liability insurance. It would also help ensure that people who sign up actually show up. While it does add a burden to the organizers, you can use something like EventBrite to handle registration and ticket sales, which should reduce the added burden to the organizers.

 

[Sandroad]

Liability is a big enough issue and this is a big enough event that TLCA sanctioning seems worth exploring.

 

[Battleship]

I apologize if this was already suggested, but the organizers of Hundreds in the Hills (@paflytyer and @bluecruiser) would be invaluable assets for an event like this. They are working on the eighth iteration of their event, and let me tell you, they have got their stuff wired tight. Most of the issues in this thread have been hashed out. Don't reinvent the wheel.

 

[linuxgod]

TLCA charges $45/year for "first class" membership. If that covered insurance for events it seems like it would be easiest to make the LCDC a subchapter of the TLCA. Those who want to wheel at the annual gathering would need to pay for membership. Those who hang out online but don't show up don't have to pay.

 

[indycole]

Most private event insurance groups will not cover anything involving an offroad event. Using a major insurer (State Farm, etc.) would be prohibitively expensive given the numbers in our group versus the potential liability. Passing that cost along would not be on the order of $10s or $100s of dollars per person -- the premium could be $10k, $25k, or more. We can't ask people for $1000+ registration fees.

Working this out with sponsors or through TLCA sanctions are the best avenues at the moment. I expect waivers to be a part of registration for next year but there's not much meat on that bone. A waiver does not cover your estate or relatives unless they all explicitly sign the agreement. The final nail in the coffin on only using a waiver is that it would never cover liability for a non-event participant.

 

[TonyP]

Getting cash involved opens a can-o-worms.

One note: Smaller groups over larger ones seems more ideal. A group of 4-5 rigs is much more enjoyable for everyone involved. Just my personal opinion.

 

[indycole]

I apologize if this was already suggested, but the organizers of Hundreds in the Hills (@paflytyer and @bluecruiser) would be invaluable assets for an event like this. They are working on the eighth iteration of their event, and let me tell you, they have got their stuff wired tight. Most of the issues in this thread have been hashed out. Don't reinvent the wheel.

I'm pretty sure they cracked the liability nut through TLCA involvement. They may be the first virtual chapter?

 

[Willy beamin]

I remember the HIH group wanted to take over this 200 gathering after year 1's success / attention it received with only 8 rigs. In conversations we all agreed that wasn't going to happen. there was some animosity over it. That stopped though once it was understood there was no disrupting this movement of guys gathering just for kicks.

There's no surprise the HIH group makes $$$ and other perks come along with that. The original goal was to never be organized in that fashion, as in how HIH was /is. Goes back to the whole grass roots feeling. Possibly could go that route anyway due to the peaked interest levels and the cost barrier for 200 is now more affordable to more people.
Hopefully not though.

 

[Sandroad]

100s In the Hills is a formal TLCA event, listed on the TLCA events web site. That would provide insurance coverage.

 

[TonyP]

There's no surprise the HIH group makes $$$ and other perks come along with that.

This is what I'm not keen on. Payola and pocket lining.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I’m with Tony on trying to keep money out of it. Besides, the 200 group will always be smaller than the 100 group simply because there are just about half as many 200s sold a year in the US as the 100 were sold when they were in production.

This should be a major point of discussion at the next (free) LCDC. Then with everyone actually able to talk, we can discuss the future.

All this talk about insurance, fees, and rules takes away from the true nature of what we are doing. When I think Land Cruiser Destination Club, it screams a new, interesting place. Not the same boring event at the same place, year after year.

I know most events are like that, and for good reason, they’re easier to plan. But we have the opportunity to be different.

However I see the LCDC turning into the normal event, vendors to sell, lots of people show up, and a modest amount of trail ridden. Nothing wrong with it.

I for one want to see a “LCXC” Land Cruiser eXpedition Club. If that means two separate events, that’s fine, one is not better than the other, and individual circumstances will move drivers from one event to the other based on what’s going on in their life from year to year.

One event can bring more of us together, and the other will be more for the purist that happen to have the time and resources to do it.

 

[TonyP]

If someone wants to plan an off-shoot trip, several day/week, that would be interesting and I would definitely be in. But I'd be surprised if more than 4 people on here (all of mud) would be willing and able to go on something like that.

 

[Oakleyguy]

s I leave the military, the time frame LCDC is will almost never work for me. I’m sure there are other people the boat with me also. July is really

If someone wants to plan an off-shoot trip, several day/week, that would be interesting and I would definitely be in. But I'd be surprised if more than 4 people on here (all of mud) would be willing and able to go on something like that.

I bet @kreiten and @Atwalz would be interested in this.

LCXC, good ring to it.