4 banger LC, thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[Jetboy]

Unless you are accelerating up a long pass you should be fine with just the gas engine, it has the same hp and more torque than the current 4 runner powertrain. If you plan on towing large loads up long mountain passes, this probably isn't the right vehicle for you.

Agreed. It's going to tow more like a 270hp/317tq engine in conditions of high load for any extended period, not like a 325hp/465tq engine. The numbers don't tell the whole story because the 325/465 is not available continuously like the 359/479 in the GX even though it probably will be faster 0-60.

But with a 20kwh battery - then it probably out tows the GX. That's where a PHEV will be great if it ever exists.

 

[NinjahGoose]

I’m just confused why this is different than any other car, hybrid or not, when charging the battery. What mechanism would prevent the high voltage battery from being charged anytime the ICE is running? If they use a magnetometer there wouldn’t be any driveline associated losses.

 

[Jetboy]

Stators do have a draw on the engine. So do alternators or any other charging mechanism. Every kwh of electricity generated requires a little more than one kwh input to the generator, stator, or other electricity generating mechanism. To add 50hp (37kw) of charge to the battery, you need 50hp of power from the engine to make it. To keep the battery charged during full power draw of the electric motor, it has to put a 50hp load on the engine.

 

[NinjahGoose]

Stators do have a draw on the engine. So do alternators or any other charging mechanism. Every kwh of electricity generated requires a little more than one kwh input to the generator, stator, or other electricity generating mechanism. To add 50hp (37kw) of charge to the battery, you need 50hp of power from the engine to make it. To keep the battery charged during full power draw of the electric motor, it has to put a 50hp load on the engine.

I have a decent understanding of thermodynamics. What you’re describing is a generator where energy has to be transformed from gas to storage in a battery in an isolated system. In these mild hybrids the IC engine is powering the car at the same time. In my mind, the electric motor/generator is already being spun by the ICE. Why can’t that energy be captured? Toyota has a lot of incredible engineers, who’s to say they haven’t thought of this and the system output is always the same?

I shouldn’t have been so dismissive in my last post, there’s always going to be losses in a mechanical workload

The TFL guys did an Ike tow run with a tundra and didn’t experience any loss of battery when towing at max capacity. Why would this be any different?

 

[Jetboy]

I have a decent understanding of thermodynamics. What you’re describing is a generator where energy has to be transformed from gas to storage in a battery in an isolated system. In these mild hybrids the IC engine is powering the car at the same time. In my mind, the electric motor/generator is already being spun by the ICE. Why can’t that energy be captured? Toyota has a lot of incredible engineers, who’s to say they haven’t thought of this and the system output is always the same?

I shouldn’t have been so dismissive in my last post, there’s always going to be losses in a mechanical workload

The TFL guys did an Ike tow run with a tundra and didn’t experience any loss of battery when towing at max capacity. Why would this be any different?

The motor/generator spinning without any electrical current to the parts of the motor that are used to control force or charge will spin freely without much resistance. But it's also neither generating any electric charge to the battery or providing additional power to the wheels. It's basically in neutral free spinning. The motor controller can choose anything between charge electricity out to the battery from 0-100% of capacity or use energy from the batter to power the vehicle from 0-100%. Any time that the motor/generator is operated to draw a charge from the system it will have a matching resistance on the spinning shaft that also acts as the rotor of the generator. 1kw of generation = ~1kw of additional resistance on the engine. It can't generate without an equivalent amount of energy being provided by the engine and any energy it draws from the engine can't also be used to power the vehicle.

If the controller called for 40hp of draw from the generator to recharge the battery and the engine was maxed out - it would reduce the input power to the transmission by 40hp and now there would only be 235hp passing through to the transmission. If the engine were at idle and didn't increase it's power and the transmission was in neutral - that would stall the engine.

The TFL IKE test - the battery didn't lose any charge because the hybrid system wasn't working to provide any power. It was just acting as a pass through with no help or draw. That's similar to the F150 hybrid that doesn't function during towing at all IIRC. In the Tundra the hybrid does assist during acceleration, but I'm not sure it does anything else for towing.

 

[vantage78]

The motor/generator spinning without any electrical current to the parts of the motor that are used to control force or charge will spin freely without much resistance. But it's also neither generating any electric charge to the battery or providing additional power to the wheels. It's basically in neutral free spinning. The motor controller can choose anything between charge electricity out to the battery from 0-100% of capacity or use energy from the batter to power the vehicle from 0-100%. Any time that the motor/generator is operated to draw a charge from the system it will have a matching resistance on the spinning shaft that also acts as the rotor of the generator. 1kw of generation = ~1kw of additional resistance on the engine. It can't generate without an equivalent amount of energy being provided by the engine and any energy it draws from the engine can't also be used to power the vehicle.

If the controller called for 40hp of draw from the generator to recharge the battery and the engine was maxed out - it would reduce the input power to the transmission by 40hp and now there would only be 235hp passing through to the transmission. If the engine were at idle and didn't increase it's power and the transmission was in neutral - that would stall the engine.

The TFL IKE test - the battery didn't lose any charge because the hybrid system wasn't working to provide any power. It was just acting as a pass through with no help or draw. That's similar to the F150 hybrid that doesn't function during towing at all IIRC. In the Tundra the hybrid does assist during acceleration, but I'm not sure it does anything else for towing.

How does the Tundra know if it’s towing or not? Based on this towing test, “there was more than one occasion when the gas engine shut itself off completely, allowing the truck to run on the electrons stored in the 1.87-kWh battery pack stowed under the back seat.” So why would the Tundra hybrid system assist with towing in that situation?

2022 Toyota Tundra Hybrid Towing Test

Defying conventional logic, this gas-electric half-ton prioritizes effort over efficiency.

www.autotrader.ca

 

[Jetboy]

How does the Tundra know if it’s towing or not? Based on this towing test, “there was more than one occasion when the gas engine shut itself off completely, allowing the truck to run on the electrons stored in the 1.87-kWh battery pack stowed under the back seat.” So why would the Tundra hybrid system assist with towing in that situation?

It knows its towing as soon as you plug in a trailer to the harness. My Tundra does that as well. It changes the dash screen configuration automatically to include the trailer and brake controller stuff in the screen. On mine - I usually use a Curt Echo because the OEM trailer brake system is hot garbage. When I use that - the truck doesn't recognize a trailer back there. Not sure why. So, you could probably trick it into not recognizing the trailer if you wanted.

I'm not sure how or when it decides to assist or not assist when towing. All I can say for certain is that if the battery isn't draining - it's not assisting. There's only one motor/generator in this system so it can't assist and generate at the same time even if there was some situation where that made sense to do.

 

[MeWantLC]

Suddenly, my head hurts. Y'all sent me back to Termo I and II and III. .

I was thinking, how y'all think this 4-banger-turbo-"semi"hybrid would do once we load them with roof tents, racks, ARB front/back bumpers, latters, tire holder, canister holder, slides, etc etc etc.... . Y'all think it will be able to provide same as the monster V8 provides enough for the loaded LC200's ?

 

[MeWantLC]

The Grand Highlander hybrid is not the same as the LC will have , it is my understanding. The LC250 will have a hybrid , "hybrid", like the Tundra.

Speculation. The same 3.4tt in the LX600 runs premium. The 2.4LHybrid in the Grand Highlander is rated at 362hp/400tq on regular, Toyota also stated that higher fuel grades would yield more power. I'm assuming that is how the LC with the same system is getting almost 70 lb-ft more torque. Most modern high output turbo'd motors perform best on premium fuel, Bronco is an example.

 

[UZJ100LC]

Suddenly, my head hurts. Y'all sent me back to Termo I and II and III. .

I was thinking, how y'all think this 4-banger-turbo-"semi"hybrid would do once we load them with roof tents, racks, ARB front/back bumpers, latters, tire holder, canister holder, slides, etc etc etc.... . Y'all think it will be able to provide same as the monster V8 provides enough for the loaded LC200's ?

It would probably kill the hybrid battery pack going up a hill in 10 minutes and then use the engine to charge it up decreasing it’s efficiency. That’s my thought anyway

 

[MeWantLC]

It would probably kill the hybrid battery pack going up a hill in 10 minutes and then use the engine to charge it up decreasing it’s efficiency. That’s my thought anyway

Yeah, I keep thinking ... Built as it is spec-ed, the LC250 would be fine... But how about once we loaded it with adults, camping gear, tents, etc etc ...

 

[Phillyd2]

 

[Romer]

I do not believe that is the Hybrid system in the 250 so it isnt relevant to this thread

The 250 uses the i Max Hybrid that works completely different

 

[Phillyd2]

I do not believe that is the Hybrid system in the 250 so it isnt relevant to this thread

The 250 uses the i Max Hybrid that works completely different

How specifically are they different? Not saying they aren't but explain in layman's non techno-geek terms.

 

[MeWantLC]

How specifically are they different? Not saying they aren't but explain in layman's non techno-geek terms.

I think the key difference is the iforceMax, which is for trucks like Tundra and LC250's, does not have a motor in the back, it only has ONE motor and it is at the front, and transmits power and energy from either the regular engine , or the engine + hybrid motor, or hybrid motor alone, via a shaft, like a regular truck.

 

[Pauly]

I guess I would question how often you will be towing a heavy trailer up a sustained incline. I get it that this system may not be the best for someone that works in the mountains and pulls a heavy trailer for a job, but for me, if I have to slow down to 50 from 70 on that 10 mile pass through the mountains, it is totally worth it to get the bump in milage most of the time.

My wife had a 2008 Prius and I don't recall ever having an issue with the battery getting low. Granted, we didn't tow many heavy trailers up mountains.

 

[Romer]

How specifically are they different? Not saying they aren't but explain in layman's non techno-geek terms.

Did you watch the two videos?

One has an E axle where the Hybrid motor provides power separately.

The I Max (250) is in line with the drivetrain and augments the drivetrain

One is an ICE motor or Hybrid E gears

The 250 is an ICE Motor with an inline electric HP and Torque enhancement

@Jetboy will set it straight if I mixed something up, but those two videos are pretty clear in the completely different topologies

 

[Phillyd2]

Did you watch the two videos?

One has an E axle where the Hybrid motor provides power separately.

The I Max (250) is in line with the drivetrain and augments the drivetrain

One is an ICE motor or Hybrid E gears

The 250 is an ICE Motor with an inline electric HP and Torque enhancement

@Jetboy will set it straight if I mixed something up, but those two videos are pretty clear in the completely different topologies

Even with the unnecessary snark, thanks for explaining in simple terms. I'm not technical enough to really understand the difference or the why. For example, what's the benefit of not having an E axle on the 250? Or are they both getting to the same place but just by a different method?

 

[MeWantLC]

The key difference is in the towing. Traditional hybrids are not great with towing, that is their downfall. With a rigid axel like a truck on the form of the Tundra or LC250, the traditional hybrid system will not be great, hence the newly developed system that also still has an automatic transmission as we see today in trucks and used to see in all vehicles; the traditional hybrids have CVT transmissions, which again, are not the greatest with towing.

Hope this helps you ! I ain't no expert, but that is my understanding.

Even with the unnecessary snark, thanks for explaining in simple terms. I'm not technical enough to really understand the difference or the why. For example, what's the benefit of not having an E axle on the 250? Or are they both getting to the same place but just by a different method?

 

[MeWantLC]

From internet sources:

“Although no curb weight figure was provided, we don't expect the 2024 Land Cruiser to be as heavy as the previous model's portly 5,815 pounds since it is a smaller vehicle and has ditched the V8. It will probably be in the lower 5,000-lbs range.”

“In place of the old-school V8, the new Toyota Land Cruiser engine is a far more efficient 2.4-liter turbocharged four-cylinder hybrid known as the i-Force Max. In this application, the engine delivers 326 hp and 465 lb-ft of torque - even more torque than the older 5.7L V8 could manage. A 48-hp electric motor is integrated into the new Land Cruiser's transmission.”

I have been trying to answer myself if the 4 banger would be enough, and I think it will be more than enough even with a fully loaded LC250, and even when / if the hybrid is down. See below !

Now, would it be as reliable? I would say YES, to all the “traditional” components. Will it be as reliable with all the new hybrid components? Man, I will not lie, it makes me a bit scared of all the high voltage 288v DC from the hybrid battery and to think how those components such cables, etc, will last 10 or 20 or 30 years without corrosion creating potential hazards, like electrical hazards…. The 80’s, 100’s, and even the 200’s only have a small battery ! LOL. And there was no “inverter with converter” on those ! Man, that part worries me ! LOL.


LC250:
5000 lbs, with a 326 hp / 456 lb-ft combined gas (turbo eng)-hybrid: 15.34 lbs/hp
5000 lbs, with a 278 hp / ??? lb-ft gas (turbo eng) only: 17.99 lbs/hp
7000 lbs, fully loaded combined gas (turbo eng)-hybrid: 21.47 lbs/hp
7000 lbs, fully loaded gas (turbo eng) only: 25.18 lbs/hp

For comparison,

1997 LC80:
4834 lbs, 212 hp @ 4600 rpm / 275 lb-ft @ 3,200 rpm: 22.80 lbs/hp
6834 lbs (fully loaded, bumpers, tent, etc): 32.24 lbs/hp


2013 LC200:
5730 lbs, 381 hp @ 5,600 rpm / 401 lb-ft @ 3,600 rpm: 15.04 lbs/hp