4 banger LC, thoughts? (7 Viewers)

[Phillyd2]

The key difference is in the towing. Traditional hybrids are not great with towing, that is their downfall. With a rigid axel like a truck on the form of the Tundra or LC250, the traditional hybrid system will not be great, hence the newly developed system that also still has an automatic transmission as we see today in trucks and used to see in all vehicles; the traditional hybrids have CVT transmissions, which again, are not the greatest with towing.

Hope this helps you ! I ain't no expert, but that is my understanding.

This is now actually starting to make sense to me

 

[malba2366]

How specifically are they different? Not saying they aren't but explain in layman's non techno-geek terms.

The system in the highlander has the engine driving the front wheels and an electric motor driving the rear wheels. In the LC250 the hybrid motor will be between the transmission and transfer case so all of the power is routed through a proper transfer case. This is similar in concept to the ZF system which is used by Jeep, and Land Rover.

 

[Rednexus]

The system in the highlander has the engine driving the front wheels and an electric motor driving the rear wheels. In the LC250 the hybrid motor will be between the transmission and transfer case so all of the power is routed through a proper transfer case. This is similar in concept to the ZF system which is used by Jeep, and Land Rover.

The Highlander system drives the front and rear wheels, although the front can be driven by the gas or electric motor. The rear is electric only and only gets power on a as-needed basis. Note that the Highlander can be FWD or AWD - but the AWD is a cheap option (like $1500) since it's just a motor, wiring, and some CVs at the rear.

 

[2021 LC200]

It would violate the laws of physics. Well, the law - conservation of energy. Whether it's the motor/generator in the hybrid or the stator in the outboard - the generation of electricity requires energy. To spin the stator magnetic ring to induce current in the windings of a stator draws energy away from the engine shaft. It's small so you might not notice it, but it does reduce shaft power to the prop. The same is true for the hybrid. All electric generation that is done by the hybrid generator is either energy taken from the engine output or from regenerative braking capturing kinetic energy.

In a simplified example - if the total load on the vehicle is 325hp - the hybrid can output 275 from the engine (from gasoline chemical energy) and 50hp from the electric motor (from the battery chemical energy) until either the hill ends or either the engine runs out of gas or the electric motor runs out of battery. In this case both are running at maximum output. Once the battery hits zero, the net system power is only 275. That's all the engine can muster. So - you have to choose then to either use all 275hp to power the wheels or to draw some of that power to recharge the battery and/or send to the electric motor. There are losses in the conversion to electricity and back, so it wouldn't make any sense to draw off 50hp to then get back 40hp EV drive. In that case the engine remains at full 275hp output and the hybrid system disconnects and the truck drives like a 275hp engine and in this example it slows down because it doesn't have enough power to maintain the same speed.

As soon as the total power to the wheels drops under 275hp, then you can keep the engine at 275hp and use the excess available energy for recharging. For example if the slope of the hill levels out a bit and now you only need 250hp - then you can draw 25hp for the battery recharge until the battery is full again.

What you can't do under any possible scenario is maintain over 275 continuous hp indefinitely or over 275hp average over time. That's all the system can produce. Fortunately it's rare to need more than 275 average horse power. It's mostly a matter of whether you need more than 275hp for a long enough time that the battery will run out. I think a big trailer on a long pass will do that. The battery just isnt very big.

And a secondary thought is the NVH and driving comfort. I've never found a scenario with my V6 4Runner that I actually ran out of power to the point that I could floor it and it couldn't maintain speed or accelerate. Not even towing my full size travel trailer at high elevation. But it's still not a good setup because it's not very fun to live at 5500 rpms all day. So part of whether the hybrid will tow well is going to be how well it does at 150hp and how often it has to downshift or jump up to high rpms. The TTv6 has a lot more excess power capacity to more easily pull without feeling stressed and that translates to driving not feeling stressed or fatigued after a long day. If the 1GR was completely isolated so you couldn't hear it or feel it or know what it was doing - 270hp would be more than enough. It would happily pull my trailers.

Excatly right jetboy, this is precisely what will happen with the LC250 towing in the mountains and why they have capped it at 6000 lbs.

In Europe with the diesel hybrid combination I understand it is more than 6000 lbs. Probably a combination of more HP at lower revs + lower towing speeds at 80 kph or 50 mph, maybe flat at 100 kph or 62 mph + less long highway climbs. Also a lot less worry about liability cases when an owner pushes it over the limit.

 

[Jstawgn]

Worry aside. This hybrid system seems to be a dream powertrain for overlanding.
1. Can run AC all night while sipping gas. The AC will run using the hybrid battery for a while and restsrt the engine automatically when need recharge.
2. Much longer range and no need to get aux tank.
3. Can power a lot of gadget without having to buy power station.

If you want a family vehicle a Honda Pilot or Siena / Odyssey would do it better.
If you want a tow vehicle a full size truck would do it better.

 

[2021 LC200]

Worry aside. This hybrid system seems to be a dream powertrain for overlanding.
1. Can run AC all night while sipping gas. The AC will run using the hybrid battery for a while and restsrt the engine automatically when need recharge.
2. Much longer range and no need to get aux tank.
3. Can power a lot of gadget without having to buy power station.

If you want a family vehicle a Honda Pilot or Siena / Odyssey would do it better.
If you want a tow vehicle a full size truck would do it better.

Yes, LC250 may work for your needs and the way you have put things in boxes, yet I like to have an SUV/Wagon with closed luggage space and carry passengers in comfort, while being able to carry a large kayak on the roof, tow our travel trailer at about 7500 to 7800 lbs loaded, is pretty good offroad and is very reliable. A vehicle which can do it all, which since the 80 series has improved with each successor. As it happens Toyota has a capable follow up to the LC200...the LC300. The new LC250 Land Cruiser Prado cannot do this. It is a vehicle one class down. Taking the same place as the 4runner which is confusing to say the least.

As such for me/imo it is not the return of the legendary Land Cruiser. It is a Prado and now with a drive train I would not choose unless it is just for city driving (= hybrids best place to save gas).

Rental before we purchased our own less capable yet slightly roomier and about half price trailer. Good luck doing this with an LC250.

 

[pawnthatdude]

Personally I don't give a crap about towing, and 27mpg and hopefully a much longer range sounds amazing. Having such a stout vehicle like the 80/100/200 for remote travel is great, except when you awkwardly have to plan your trip around (expensive) fuel stops because you get less than 250 miles on a tank when aired down on dirt all day.

(Yes you can get an LRA tank for $$, which also means you need rear swing out for $$$ which makes your tail gate annoying to access. Or you can carry jerry cans that will give you forty-fifty miles of extra range off road -- which is still not enough for comfort in some places in the West)

 

[UZJ100LC]

I’m not so much worried about towing, I’d buy a tundra if I was going to tow that big of a trailer.

But what about when weighted down with drawers, fridge, sliders, skid plates, front and rear bumpers with winch, tire carrier, roof top tent and a family of 4

Are we really expecting a 4cyl to not be over stressed pushing this up a mountain pass? The hybrid battery will get eaten up in minutes.

I don’t really quite understand how it’s supposed to work unless there is some breakthrough in tech we don’t know about

 

[gearguywb]

Different tools for different applications. When I want to tow I use my F350 diesel Tremor.

LC is for exploring/fun while in a capable and comfortable rig.

 

[MrX]

What a nightmare. Hilarious people actually are fine the V8 is gone. Who gives a s*** about gas mileage with these? I don't.

 

[Boston Mangler]

The use of Hybrid/ev technology in (Toyota) trucks has never been done before and is therefore in its experimental stage. Now the Toyota troops here will tell you that this new technology was actually invented by Dom Hybridnon, a Benedictine monk, in 1685, that it was used to successfully power French frigates in the Seven Years war etc etc, in other words, they’ll tell you anything you want to hear. But suffice it to say that buying a Turbo Hybrid today, when serious EV technology is probably only a few years away, is like buying an iphone 3 with the iphone 15 about to come out. So if you have a good V6 or V8 it won’t cost you or the planet much in gas mileage or pollution to wait a little bit longer, let EV tech flower and buy at the technologically propitious moment, ie in about 3-5 years. In any case, common sense should inform you that buying a new engine in a first year car is a very long walk off a very short plank, so proceed at your own peril.

Post of the month! Bravo Sir!

This thread is pure comedy!

I have an old 2010 Prius with over 200k as my daily...

I have literally done nothing whatsoever to it other than change the oil every 10k

The “internet experts” opinions here are hilarious

 

[MeWantLC]

I’m not so much worried about towing, I’d buy a tundra if I was going to tow that big of a trailer.

But what about when weighted down with drawers, fridge, sliders, skid plates, front and rear bumpers with winch, tire carrier, roof top tent and a family of 4

Are we really expecting a 4cyl to not be over stressed pushing this up a mountain pass? The hybrid battery will get eaten up in minutes.

I don’t really quite understand how it’s supposed to work unless there is some breakthrough in tech we don’t know about

See my previous post . Based on my Internet research for the LC250 engine power and weight, and data from the LC80 and LC200, the LC250 would be more than fine. The 4 Cylinder is a turbo one, that is a big part of the equation and then it is the electric boost it will have ! I have / had the same concern, so went into trying to make sense ... And it actually looks like the LC250 would be fine !

The iMax Force is supposed to give a boost in power whilst helping with better MPG. In reality, it is not REALLY about the MPG improvement, but it is about the less emissions, that is why Toyota finally caved into the turbos and now turbos+hybrid.

From internet sources:

“Although no curb weight figure was provided, we don't expect the 2024 Land Cruiser to be as heavy as the previous model's portly 5,815 pounds since it is a smaller vehicle and has ditched the V8. It will probably be in the lower 5,000-lbs range.”

“In place of the old-school V8, the new Toyota Land Cruiser engine is a far more efficient 2.4-liter turbocharged four-cylinder hybrid known as the i-Force Max. In this application, the engine delivers 326 hp and 465 lb-ft of torque - even more torque than the older 5.7L V8 could manage. A 48-hp electric motor is integrated into the new Land Cruiser's transmission.”

I have been trying to answer myself if the 4 banger would be enough, and I think it will be more than enough even with a fully loaded LC250, and even when / if the hybrid is down. See below !

Now, would it be as reliable? I would say YES, to all the “traditional” components. Will it be as reliable with all the new hybrid components? Man, I will not lie, it makes me a bit scared of all the high voltage 288v DC from the hybrid battery and to think how those components such cables, etc, will last 10 or 20 or 30 years without corrosion creating potential hazards, like electrical hazards…. The 80’s, 100’s, and even the 200’s only have a small battery ! LOL. And there was no “inverter with converter” on those ! Man, that part worries me ! LOL.


LC250:
5000 lbs, with a 326 hp / 456 lb-ft combined gas (turbo eng)-hybrid: 15.34 lbs/hp
5000 lbs, with a 278 hp / ??? lb-ft gas (turbo eng) only: 17.99 lbs/hp
7000 lbs, fully loaded combined gas (turbo eng)-hybrid: 21.47 lbs/hp
7000 lbs, fully loaded gas (turbo eng) only: 25.18 lbs/hp

For comparison,

1997 LC80:
4834 lbs, 212 hp @ 4600 rpm / 275 lb-ft @ 3,200 rpm: 22.80 lbs/hp
6834 lbs (fully loaded, bumpers, tent, etc): 32.24 lbs/hp


2013 LC200:
5730 lbs, 381 hp @ 5,600 rpm / 401 lb-ft @ 3,600 rpm: 15.04 lbs/hp

 

[Jetboy]

Did you watch the two videos?

One has an E axle where the Hybrid motor provides power separately.

The I Max (250) is in line with the drivetrain and augments the drivetrain

One is an ICE motor or Hybrid E gears

The 250 is an ICE Motor with an inline electric HP and Torque enhancement

@Jetboy will set it straight if I mixed something up, but those two videos are pretty clear in the completely different topologies

The standard Toyota hybrid system is a dual motor/generator transmission and uses a second e-axle in the rear. Typically it's a 3 motor electric system with a front gas engine. I believe all the common Toyota hybrid cars and cuvs have either the front 2 motor setup or the awd with the 3 motor setup adding the rear motor. It's a very efficient system and having 2 motor/generator units in the front transmission allows it to do every combination from all gas power to gas>electric>electric drive to a combined electric and gas drive to full EV mode.

The Tundra system is a single electric motor that replaces the torque converter. It is upstream of a traditional 10 speed transmission and is really built for adding a bit of boost to the engine output.

All that is pretty straight forward I think. Tundra/LC/Tacoma is very different from all the others. Here's the strange part. The Grand Highlander with the 2.4L iforce max - it's more like the the BOF version. Maybe. Edit: Original press reveal said one motor only for the GH. But the Toyota video (that's for the Crown that seems like the same powertrain as the GH) shows both front motor and rear e-axle. I haven't seen any details on it other than the basic configuration. But it sure sounds a lot like the same thing as the Tundra/LC/Tacoma hybrid design. What's super odd to me is that they packaged a transfer 4cyl turbo with the electric motor and then a 6 speed transaxle all in the front of the vehicle. It's a lot of stuff and at some point it gets really wide just to physically fit sideways. My thought is that it might be a very similar design to the Tacoma/LC/Tundra version - at least as far as the front motor/transmission is concerned.

Excatly right jetboy, this is precisely what will happen with the LC250 towing in the mountains and why they have capped it at 6000 lbs.

In Europe with the diesel hybrid combination I understand it is more than 6000 lbs. Probably a combination of more HP at lower revs + lower towing speeds at 80 kph or 50 mph, maybe flat at 100 kph or 62 mph + less long highway climbs. Also a lot less worry about liability cases when an owner pushes it over the limit.

I'm super curious to see some real world testing with it. I think the turbo4 will outperform the outgoing v6 pretty easily. It should make a lot more power lower in the rpm range. Possibly making more power at 2k rpms than even the outgoing 5.7. In that case it might tow really nicely in everyday conditions. But I have yet to see any good power curves to compare to the 5.7. Just looking at the design, I'd expect it to be pretty close to the 5.7 until around 3500 rpms where the 5.7 starts to pull away in power, but that's just a guess. If the hybrid part can supplement it to give enough boost for the big hills, I think it might be great, but as I've said before - the battery is just too small to expect much help on the long hills.

Just as maybe a figure to look at - the 5.7v8 makes around 125hp at 2k rpms. The TTv6 makes about 180hp at 2k rpms. Scaling for displacement (NOT SURE IF THIS IS VALID) - the turbo 4cyl makes about 120hp. With the hybrid boost it would have 170hp - well more than the 5.7 until it runs out of battery. On rolling hills - the turbo hybrid should pull better than the 5.7. But on the long steep hills where you need steady high output - the 5.7 starts to run away from the T2.4. At 3500 rpms the 5.7 would make about 250hp where the T2.4 would only make about 210. And by 5,000 rpms the 5.7 is closing in on 380hp while the T2.4 is only at 270. This could all be adjusted then for elevation where the turbo would have less power loss. By 5k feet - I think the T2.4 probably out pulls the 5.7 up to 2500 rpms. At 10k feet - I'd bet the T2.4 will out pull the 5.7 across almost the full rpm range.

I think you could get a relatively good comparison by driving an 8 speed 5.7 LC200 and see how often you need more than 2500 rpms for more than maybe 2 miles continuously to get a picture of where the T2.4 will fall short. If you don't need to drop gears regularly to get up to those higher rpms for sustained passes - the T2.4 should be pretty decent replacement.

The big unknowns are how well the hybrid will add that extra power and how well the engine, 8 speed, and gearing all work together to make it nice to drive. The other unknown is fuel consumption. Turbo engines under heavy load tend to be very thirsty. As is the 5.7. The T2.4 maxed out might suck fuel down faster than the 5.7. Lots of tow tests seem to reach the same result that the old basic NA v8's end up with better mileage towing heavy trailers than their small displacement turbo counterparts.

 

[MrX]

The big unknowns are how well the hybrid will add that extra power and how well the engine, 8 speed, and gearing all work together to make it nice to drive. The other unknown is fuel consumption. Turbo engines under heavy load tend to be very thirsty. As is the 5.7. The T2.4 maxed out might suck fuel down faster than the 5.7. Lots of tow tests seem to reach the same result that the old basic NA v8's end up with better mileage towing heavy trailers than their small displacement turbo counterparts.

Lol yep. EPA and real world are two different things. I just had an F-150 rental for a week with Ecoboost, my fuel economy average when I turned it back in was 12MPG. Zero better than the GM 6.2 V8 here at home in the family. Maybe give or take a few tenths of a MPG.

As you mention, who knows how this will all turn out. I don't predict very well. All I know is that a 4 cylinder sounds dreadful under load and they didn't stick the 350ci V8 in the previous trucks for their health and giggles. It's a dedicated, tough as nails truck engine that basically just needs oil changes and gas and plugs. Majority of owners don't give a FF about fuel economy, I sure don't. Heavy, powerful, real trucks suck down gas. Always have and always will, who the hell cares.

Who knows how bad ass the monster new V8 the new GX, LX, Lexus LS, LC, Land Cruiser would have if not for all this treehugger government crap that made Toyota kill V8 development.

 

[TWILLY]

Yes, LC250 may work for your needs and the way you have put things in boxes, yet I like to have an SUV/Wagon with closed luggage space and carry passengers in comfort, while being able to carry a large kayak on the roof, tow our travel trailer at about 7500 to 7800 lbs loaded, is pretty good offroad and is very reliable. A vehicle which can do it all, which since the 80 series has improved with each successor. As it happens Toyota has a capable follow up to the LC200...the LC300. The new LC250 Land Cruiser Prado cannot do this. It is a vehicle one class down. Taking the same place as the 4runner which is confusing to say the least.

As such for me/imo it is not the return of the legendary Land Cruiser. It is a Prado and now with a drive train I would not choose unless it is just for city driving (= hybrids best place to save gas).

View attachment 3406657

Rental before we purchased our own less capable yet slightly roomier and about half price trailer. Good luck doing this with an LC250.
View attachment 3406664

The new Sequoia is much better suited to your use case than your 200 series.

Having driven 80s since introduced, I am delighted that Toyota has finally fixed Land Cruiser's abysmal efficiency and range (in the North American market). It has for three decades been Land Cruiser's Achilles heel for remote travel.

Saving for yet-to-be-published payload data, what we know thus far about the 250 is for remote dirt touring a vast improvement on the 200 series, the 100 series, and, in most ways, the 80 series too.

 

[TWILLY]

Majority of owners don't give a FF about fuel economy, I sure don't. Heavy, powerful, real trucks suck down gas. Always have and always will, who the hell cares.

I do. Many do. It matters greatly for remote touring. I would vastly prefer reliable and efficient hybrid technology to the status quo of carrying (payload penalty) and paying for (financial penalty) an entire second fuel tank. That extra tank of gas is five days worth of water on my remote beach camp in Mexico.

 

[Knowbuddy]

Majority of owners don't give a FF about fuel economy, I sure don't. Heavy, powerful, real trucks suck down gas. Always have and always will, who the hell cares.

Seems like a pretty unbased assumption. If your goal is to drive around town then sure I see your point. But for me driving out into the deserts of Utah range is an absolute concern.

 

[MeWantLC]

My understanding is that the new Tundra that has the One Motor Hybrid Drive, does have a torque converter: One side connected to the transmission and one side to the electric motor (hybrid module).

The Tundra system is a single electric motor that replaces the torque converter. It is upstream of a traditional 10 speed transmission and is really built for adding a bit of boost to the engine output.

 

[Jetboy]

I have a lot of reasons I'd rather burn less gas. I've yet to hear a good argument why it would be better to burn more.

 

[Jetboy]

My understanding is that the new Tundra that has the One Motor Hybrid Drive, does have a torque converter: One side connected to the transmission and one side to the electric motor (hybrid module).

You're right. I thought it was replaced with just a simple clutch. I think other manufacturers have done it that way. But it looks like it has a full normal transmission including torque converter behind the electric motor. I think even Toyota's own RWD hybrid sedans use design that skips the torque converter. It's just a regular 10 speed behind a motor/generator. TBH it seems in some ways more like what you'd expect from an aftermarket design than an OEM. Was it an afterthought? More efficient? Cheaper to produce? Would be interesting to know more about why it was done this way.