4 banger LC, thoughts?

[MeWantLC]

It's a very different system than the Prius/Corolla planetary gear system. In the Prius/Corolla system, the engine and electric motor are in parallel. Both drive a planetary gear. That is, the output gear from the engine engages the planetary gear. The output gear from the electric motor also engages the planetary gear.

In contrast, the mild hybrid system in Tundra, new Taco, and LC 250 has the engine and electric motor in series. The electric motor is literally sandwiched between the engine and the automatic transmission.

It is referred to as a "mild" hybrid system, not a "soft" hybrid.

What's your take on the battery usage and longevity in these mild hybrid systems? And please don't tell me to Google it because if I asked you, it's because I trusted you and your knowledge, not because I am lazy.... .

Based on what I have read and you just explained, it seems the battery should last even more than the full hybrids had.

Also, this kinda reaffirms what I have said and think, the MPG gains in this LC are mostly from the smaller engine+turbo than the actual hybrid. Also, seeing the Tundras MPG "improvement" , I will hold my breath on the advertised 27 MPG.... Hope I am wrong, of course... And it gives 27!!!

 

[pawnthatdude]

I'm not too worried about the battery longevity. Tons of people on the Prius have made it well over 200k on the original battery (also an NiMH battery). If we compared the 250s advertised MPG to the 200 MPG, and a very conservative estimate for how long the battery would last, the fuel savings alone would easily pay for a battery. Probably multiple times over.

I am also assuming the 250 will take mid grade fuel for the turbo, but I don't know.

Simplified math using my local fuel costs
200 series fuel cost for 150k miles = (150000 miles * $4/gallon)/15mpg = $40,000
250 series fuel cost for 150k miles = (150000 miles * $4.4/gallon)/27mpg = $24,444
Difference: $15,556

Pretty sure a battery (and turbo if needed), can be replaced multiple times for $15,556.

 

[NinjahGoose]

I don't think fuel consumption is the primary goal (the Sequoia is a prime example). I see it as meeting emission requirements while giving drivers the performance they desire. Fuel consumption is secondary.

The Toyota America lead on Tundra said the whole goal with the 3.4ttHybrid was to make a Gas truck with Diesel like power curves.

 

[M1911]

What's your take on the battery usage and longevity in these mild hybrid systems? And please don't tell me to Google it because if I asked you, it's because I trusted you and your knowledge, not because I am lazy.... .

We are going to disagree on the lazy part.

Here is what I found with 15 seconds of googling: Toyota warranties hybrid batteries for 10 years or 150k miles. Toyota Battery Warranty - https://www.toyota.com/electrified-vehicles/warranty/

Everything I’ve found by googling about Prius batteries supports that Toyota’s hybrid batteries usually last more than 150k miles.

I can’t comment on the difference in battery life between a full hybrid and a mild hybrid. Different battery chemistries have different degradation curves. In addition, battery life is affected by how deeply you discharge it. Most hybrids and BEVs try to keep you from completely discharging the battery. So the life of the battery will be impacted by how conservative the manufacturer was when they developed the battery control logic. I certainly don’t have any insight into Toyota’s battery control logic or battery chemistries, other than to say that 1) they are a conservative company in general and 2) they’ve been at the hybrid game for a very long time. Is Toyota going to be more or less conservative in their mild hybrids than their full hybrids? That’s not a question that I can answer.

 

[MeWantLC]

We are going to disagree on the lazy part.

Here is what I found with 15 seconds of googling: Toyota warranties hybrid batteries for 10 years or 150k miles. Toyota Battery Warranty - https://www.toyota.com/electrified-vehicles/warranty/

Everything I’ve found by googling about Prius batteries supports that Toyota’s hybrid batteries usually last more than 150k miles.

I can’t comment on the difference in battery life between a full hybrid and a mild hybrid. Different battery chemistries have different degradation curves. In addition, battery life is affected by how deeply you discharge it. Most hybrids and BEVs try to keep you from completely discharging the battery. So the life of the battery will be impacted by how conservative the manufacturer was when they developed the battery control logic. I certainly don’t have any insight into Toyota’s battery control logic or battery chemistries, other than to say that 1) they are a conservative company in general and 2) they’ve been at the hybrid game for a very long time. Is Toyota going to be more or less conservative in their mild hybrids than their full hybrids? That’s not a question that I can answer.

I found the first part. What I was looking for was your comments and ideas of the second paragraph.

And thank you ! .

I do trust Toyota. Have had about 25 of them trucks so yeah, I do trust Toyota. I am just trying to see if we can understand a bit better battery longevity based on the fact that the LC250 hybrid IS NOT the same as Prius , etc. Looks like batteries might not be the issues after all others issues can arrive first. .

Cheers !

 

[NTTD]

I'm not sure it is fixable. It shouldn't be impossible for the greater society to act decently - but I'll bet against it happening. At least in the USA. In Japan or most of Europe? sure. Easy. Here - we can't even keep things in control in ubers where the car's owner is right there. And the urban social behavior tends to be the worst, which is also where they would be most valuable.

Of course this happens but is blown out of proportion. Our media has largely gone from facts driven to "clicks" driven.
I'm constantly running across articles from all kind of sources where the headline is somewhere behind slightly misleading to the outright opposite of the facts of the story.

All we would need is some well-publicized accounts of people getting penalized and it should be manageable.

I guess this thread title “4 banger LC” is appropriate. Again, I think if everything is recorded and there are financial, and hopefully legal ramifications for bad behavior, this is controllable.

In my city Uber cars are clean and nice without exception.

Same.

The Toyota America lead on Tundra said the whole goal with the 3.4ttHybrid was to make a Gas truck with Diesel like power curves.

Yep, torquey with good emissions and decent mileage.

Wish we could get a diesel hybrid.

 

[Jetboy]

Of course this happens but is blown out of proportion. Our media has largely gone from facts driven to "clicks" driven.
I'm constantly running across articles from all kind of sources where the headline is somewhere behind slightly misleading to the outright opposite of the facts of the story.

All we would need is some well-publicized accounts of people getting penalized and it should be manageable.

I still use rideshares but they have deteriorated badly in the last 5 years. I would not give up my own vehicle for using rideshare even if they were free because of the sanitation alone. Autonomous cars with no cleaning in between - nope. In Japan or Singapore or Sweden - I wouldn't think twice about.

I agree that punishments would help. Based on what I've seen in the last 5 years - the idea of enforcing rules of use in autonomous taxis is little more than a daydream to me. I'd like them to exist and I'll certainly be the first to change my mind if I see it come to fruition.

 

[NTTD]

I still use rideshares but they have deteriorated badly in the last 5 years. I would not give up my own vehicle for using rideshare even if they were free because of the sanitation alone. Autonomous cars with no cleaning in between - nope. In Japan or Singapore or Sweden - I wouldn't think twice about.

I agree that punishments would help. Based on what I've seen in the last 5 years - the idea of enforcing rules of use in autonomous taxis is little more than a daydream to me. I'd like them to exist and I'll certainly be the first to change my mind if I see it come to fruition.

Fair point. I was thinking more "Uber" and less "autonomous rideshare". That would be a harder one to do and keep nice.


And other than some major urban areas I don't really see that model working.

Of course that's likely the future and I'm the past so I don't have to see it for it to be what happens.

I don't get it but heck my boy didn't get his license until his mid 20's. Had ZERO desire.
Man I got my permit pretty much the very day I could, and had my license within days of turning 16.

 

[Jetboy]

Autonomous car service solves the range problem and charging issues almost completely. Cars go charge themselves at central locations that dramatically reduce the infrastructure costs of charging stations that have both extreme demand levels and very low load factors. They are basically the most expensive possible type of energy user to serve. And it solves the range issue almost entirely because a proper system would simply have a car ready for you at a preplanned crossover point on a trip. You get to a transfer point and just get out and get into another car that takes you for the next leg of the trip. It also solves charging speed - doesn't matter if it's slower when no one is waiting on it. There's a ton of benefits beyond just the capital cost savings of building fewer cars and reducing parking and congestion. It's the human part that's the problem to me.

 

[NTTD]

It's the human part that's the problem to me.

Well yeah, but it's for humans. Technology is meant to better our lives and serve. It's not for us to conform to.

All of what you said makes perfect sense, academically, but we're ultimately talking about people. People like to drive, especially Americans. It's practically a religion (or cult).

It's not just about going from point A to B in the easiest most cost-effective way possible. If so we'd all have Smart Cars or ride buses or something.
There would be no sports cars, no offroaders...

 

[Phillyd2]

It's not just about going from point A to B in the easiest most cost-effective way possible. If so we'd all have Smart Cars or ride buses or something.
There would be no sports cars, no offroaders...

Give it a second. Even a blind man can see the ultimate goal. I wish I could say it was way off in the future but the die has been cast and we don’t even have 10 years if current trends continue. Thier good meaning enablers are already on the case in these very threads.

 

[JohnPW]

Well yeah, but it's for humans. Technology is meant to better our lives and serve. It's not for us to conform to.

All of what you said makes perfect sense, academically, but we're ultimately talking about people. People like to drive, especially Americans. It's practically a religion (or cult).

It's not just about going from point A to B in the easiest most cost-effective way possible. If so we'd all have Smart Cars or ride buses or something.
There would be no sports cars, no offroaders...

You are nuts. What you enjoy is not what the average American Gen Z cares about at all. If there’s a car service taking you to where you want to go, at a fraction of the cost of buying a $50k car and insuring it, that’s what Gen Z will do.

This forum is full of enthusiasts and/or people of higher than average incomes. What we want, a kick ass 4WD, is not what the average American will pay for if they don’t have to.

 

[M1911]

Wish we could get a diesel hybrid.

Not me. You'd have the extra cost of the hybrid (maybe $1,500), plus the extra cost of the diesel engine, high pressure fuel system, and exhaust treatment (another $3,000 or so). And all that so you can spend an extra 20% per gallon on the diesel fuel over regular gas. You also get more expensive maintenance for the exhaust treatment system and the high pressure fuel system. No thanks.

 

[subspd]

Diesel doesn’t make sense in the states anymore. Between the emissions challenges now and the fuel cost. And I love a diesel don’t get me wrong owned a few.

 

[JohnPW]

Autonomous car service solves the range problem and charging issues almost completely. Cars go charge themselves at central locations that dramatically reduce the infrastructure costs of charging stations that have both extreme demand levels and very low load factors. They are basically the most expensive possible type of energy user to serve. And it solves the range issue almost entirely because a proper system would simply have a car ready for you at a preplanned crossover point on a trip. You get to a transfer point and just get out and get into another car that takes you for the next leg of the trip. It also solves charging speed - doesn't matter if it's slower when no one is waiting on it. There's a ton of benefits beyond just the capital cost savings of building fewer cars and reducing parking and congestion. It's the human part that's the problem to me.

I think you nailed it. But if this evolution happens, it doesn’t mean you have to participate. Keep an awesome Toyota 4WD, but a huge chunk of society will trade owning a car for the lower cost of an autonomous service. The take rate of public transportation is large in NYC and other big cities. Young people already Uber everywhere in midsize cities. An autonomous car service will gobble up future car buyers, whether any MUD members are interested or not.

 

[NTTD]

I don't get it but heck my boy didn't get his license until his mid 20's. Had ZERO desire.
Man I got my permit pretty much the very day I could, and had my license within days of turning 16.

You are nuts. What you enjoy is not what the average American Gen Z cares about at all. If there’s a car service taking you to where you want to go, at a fraction of the cost of buying a $50k car and insuring it, that’s what Gen Z will do.

This forum is full of enthusiasts and/or people of higher than average incomes. What we want, a kick ass 4WD, is not what the average American will pay for if they don’t have to.

Nuts?! Perhaps, I did acknowledge when I said the above. I just don't think society is going to change that fundamentally that fast. But of course I could be wrong.

Diesel doesn’t make sense in the states anymore. Between the emissions challenges now and the fuel cost. And I love a diesel don’t get me wrong owned a few.

YEah, I should have qualified it as I wish we had the same diesel options as are elsewhere.

The take rate of public transportation is large in NYC and other big cities.

Which only covers a very small percentage of the land mass of this country.
I and others have mentioned how this ride-sharing model makes sense in heavy urban areas.

However to pretend that same model applies to the burbs and the country (rural areas) is a disingenuous argument.

 

[JohnPW]

Nuts?! Perhaps, I did acknowledge when I said the above. I just don't think society is going to change that fundamentally that fast. But of course I could be wrong.


YEah, I should have qualified it as I wish we had the
However to pretend that same model applies to the burbs and the country (rural areas) is a disingenuous argument.

Nuts?! Perhaps, I did acknowledge when I said the above. I just don't think society is going to change that fundamentally that fast. But of course I could be wrong.
Which only covers a very small percentage of the land mass of this country.
I and others have mentioned how this ride-sharing model makes sense in heavy urban areas.

However to pretend that same model applies to the burbs and the country (rural areas) is a disingenuous argument.

Public transport doesn’t make economic sense in rural areas, that wasn’t my point. Rather, when something is convenient and cheaper, and DOES make economic sense, people will start using it immediately. People use public transport because it is cheaper and more convenient than owning a car in NYC. If an autonomous car service is cheaper than owning and insuring a car, in cities or in rural areas, large swaths of society will adopt it immediately.

 

[Romer]

I really like what I saw with the 250. I also like the GX550 Overtrail. Everyone's situation is different and if I didn't have a heavy camper that is close to 5000 lbs fully loaded, I would be looking at the 250. Maybe real world data will show me what I need or others here have some knowledge on this.

The way I understand it the Battery provides extra torque and HP to the 4 TT engine

I tend to pull my Kimberley Karavan up several mountain passes where ever I go. From my limited understanding pulling that heavy a load up a high mountain pass will deplete the battery before I have covered significant distance reducing the 250 to the HP and Torque of the 4TT. Yes it would recharge on the way down. This was one of the reasons I traded my 100 series for a 200 series, lack of towing power on passes

Please correct me if I am wrong on how the 4TT 250 Hybrid works. I know the 6TT GX550 should work just fine and am curious what a 6TT Hybrid for the GX550 would be in the future

 

[Jetboy]

I really like what I saw with the 250. I also like the GX550 Overtrail. Everyone's situation is different and if I didn't have a heavy camper that is close to 5000 lbs fully loaded, I would be looking at the 250. Maybe real world data will show me what I need or others here have some knowledge on this.

The way I understand it the Battery provides extra torque and HP to the 4 TT engine

I tend to pull my Kimberley Karavan up several mountain passes where ever I go. From my limited understanding pulling that heavy a load up a high mountain pass will deplete the battery before I have covered significant distance reducing the 250 to the HP and Torque of the 4TT. Yes it would recharge on the way down. This was one of the reasons I traded my 100 series for a 200 series, lack of towing power on passes

Please correct me if I am wrong on how the 4TT 250 Hybrid works. I know the 6TT GX550 should work just fine and am curious what a 6TT Hybrid for the GX550 would be in the future
View attachment 3403125

I think that's right. It kinda has to be. The battery only has a limited about of energy. Once it's out, it's out. I'm skeptical about how it'll tow. The engine is small but the turbo will be better at elevation. My best guess would be that the t4 hybrid will not pull as well as the 5.7, but probably better than the 4.6 and the 4.0 engines. 5k lbs might be okay.

I would wait until they're out and in service a bit to see how they do before pulling the trigger. Maybe they'll let you test tow?

 

[m4hk33]

I have a natural inclination to be drawn towards larger V8's as smaller displacement engines when used in larger applications have just not proved to be an improvement.

If the newer generation of engines proves to as capable and more efficient, while maintaining acceptable reliability, I would consider one.

If the LC can hit 27mpg's with a 4 banger, thats interesting. If its under 20, I would simply opt for a larger vehicle with a better power plant.