4 banger LC, thoughts?

[Docyota]

Real world experience with the TTV6 in my LX600: it's a dream. Better gas mileage, acres of torque and acceleration. Very happy (as long as it doesn't have an engine failure or wastegate getting stuck like the tundras).

My money (quite literally, deposit placed on an incognito or nori green overtrail+) is on the Gx550 as the ideal all around 4x4. the lc250 will likely be a bit under powered in comparison.

I think we have a gentle evolution with 10-20% improvement in nearly all categories of both the LC250 and Gx550 (efficiency, comfort, safety, driving experience). Hopefully reliability is maintained.

 

[NinjahGoose]

Real world experience with the TTV6 in my LX600: it's a dream. Better gas mileage, acres of torque and acceleration. Very happy (as long as it doesn't have an engine failure or wastegate getting stuck like the tundras).

My money (quite literally, deposit placed on an incognito or nori green overtrail+) is on the Gx550 as the ideal all around 4x4. the lc250 will likely be a bit under powered in comparison.

I think we have a gentle evolution with 10-20% improvement in nearly all categories of both the LC250 and Gx550 (efficiency, comfort, safety, driving experience). Hopefully reliability is maintained.

I'm still so torn on what to upgrade from my 4Runner. I really like the idea of getting 27mpg combined (before upgrading to the larger A/T's) with the LC, especially since the LC and GX are going to be running premium fuel.

 

[Phillyd2]

Is premium fuel for both fact or just speculation?

 

[NinjahGoose]

Is premium fuel for both fact or just speculation?

Speculation. The same 3.4tt in the LX600 runs premium. The 2.4LHybrid in the Grand Highlander is rated at 362hp/400tq on regular, Toyota also stated that higher fuel grades would yield more power. I'm assuming that is how the LC with the same system is getting almost 70 lb-ft more torque. Most modern high output turbo'd motors perform best on premium fuel, Bronco is an example.

 

[NTTD]

Most modern high output turbo'd motors perform best on premium fuel, Bronco is an example.

Speaking of I'm still hoping for a 2 door.

I'd like something with shorter wheelbase.

 

[vantage78]

I think that's right. It kinda has to be. The battery only has a limited about of energy. Once it's out, it's out. I'm skeptical about how it'll tow. The engine is small but the turbo will be better at elevation. My best guess would be that the t4 hybrid will not pull as well as the 5.7, but probably better than the 4.6 and the 4.0 engines. 5k lbs might be okay.

I would wait until they're out and in service a bit to see how they do before pulling the trigger. Maybe they'll let you test tow?

I would think the hybrid would work like the others? When the battery has 0 EV miles, it’s not a dead battery. It would still have some reserve left (20%?) that cannot be accessed by electric only drive, but can still work as a fully charged hybrid battery. Ie you still get the hp/tq from the electric motor.

 

[Romer]

I would think the hybrid would work like the others? When the battery has 0 EV miles, it’s not a dead battery. It would still have some reserve left (20%?) that cannot be accessed by electric only drive, but can still work as a fully charged hybrid battery. Ie you still get the hp/tq from the electric motor.

There is no electric only drive in the 250 Hybrid. The electric is an assist and bolted to the main drivetrain

 

[Jetboy]

I would think the hybrid would work like the others? When the battery has 0 EV miles, it’s not a dead battery. It would still have some reserve left (20%?) that cannot be accessed by electric only drive, but can still work as a fully charged hybrid battery. Ie you still get the hp/tq from the electric motor.

What Romer said ^^^

The battery pack is 1.9kwh. Back of the envelope math ends up with somewhere around 60 seconds of output at the full 50hp. So, the utility of the hybrid system depends a lot on the hill you're on and how long it is. Towing on a perfectly flat highway in ideal stead state condition - the hybrid has no utility. Towing on rolling hills where it can balance out the load variation and recapture the downhill (I'm not sure if it even does regen on this one) - that's the ideal scenario for it and it'll be a big help. On a long steep mountain pass - you've only got 275hp steady output, so it would run out of juice in about 1 mile on the electric side and then you're all engine the rest of the way. BUT - if could be a pass that is rolling grade where it helps on the steepest parts and recovers some on the less steep segments. It's just really dependent on the terrain.

The issue with the long pass is that the hybrid doesn't know what is ahead. So it won't know to reserve some energy for the steepest parts. That's where something like Tesla's database of highways would be very useful to know the route and be able to maximize the hybrid system. This is more of a dumb system that is purely reactionary.

Also this is why I think a PHEV would be so much better. The system is all there for diesel beating performance except the battery capacity. Increase battery capacity and it'll be something pretty special.

 

[vantage78]

There is no electric only drive in the 250 Hybrid. The electric is an assist and bolted to the main drivetrain

Disappointing to hear. So just a short power boost until it’s fully drained, and then it’s kaput until it’s recharged again?

 

[M1911]

Disappointing to hear. So just a short power boost until it’s fully drained, and then it’s kaput until it’s recharged again?

That is how all full hybrids work. In normal driving it is unobtrusive.

It is not a plug-in hybrid. That would be much more expensive, heavier, and have less cargo room, due to the need for a much larger battery.

 

[Jetboy]

 

[NinjahGoose]

That doesn't mention running out of battery. Unless otherwise stated by Toyota, I'm going to assume that the electric motor/generator will always keep the battery charged, even when running up a steep grade.

 

[Jetboy]

At the end of the day - it's a battery. It can only provide net energy out by discharging. And it can only discharge the energy it has. Once it burns through the 1.2ish kwh of useable energy the battery can no longer continue to assist the engine in powering the vehicle. It can either do nothing or it can draw energy away from the powertrain.

 

[Phillyd2]

There’s only one 12V battery near the bigger Hybrid battery?

 

[NinjahGoose]

At the end of the day - it's a battery. It can only provide net energy out by discharging. And it can only discharge the energy it has. Once it burns through the 1.2ish kwh of useable energy the battery can no longer continue to assist the engine in powering the vehicle. It can either do nothing or it can draw energy away from the powertrain.

Of course. But what if the electric motor/generator includes something like a magnetic stator? Those could charge the battery while running at full bore. The one in my old Evinrude 150HO outboard could output 1.7kw.

 

[vantage78]

That is how all full hybrids work. In normal driving it is unobtrusive.

It is not a plug-in hybrid. That would be much more expensive, heavier, and have less cargo room, due to the need for a much larger battery.

Didn’t think it was a plug in hybrid, but it operated like the other Toyota hybrids. Ex: the sequoia, at low speeds (under 18 miles per hour) it can roll along in electric-only mode, but quickly adds the gasoline engine when you step on the accelerator, returning to EV mode when you lift off the pedal. Now @Romer is saying there is no EV drive, so if you exhaust the battery that’s it? I find it odd it’s different from the other hybrid setups in Toyota’s line up….

 

[Jetboy]

Of course. But what if the electric motor/generator includes something like a magnetic stator? Those could charge the battery while running at full bore. The one in my old Evinrude 150HO outboard could output 1.7kw.

It would violate the laws of physics. Well, the law - conservation of energy. Whether it's the motor/generator in the hybrid or the stator in the outboard - the generation of electricity requires energy. To spin the stator magnetic ring to induce current in the windings of a stator draws energy away from the engine shaft. It's small so you might not notice it, but it does reduce shaft power to the prop. The same is true for the hybrid. All electric generation that is done by the hybrid generator is either energy taken from the engine output or from regenerative braking capturing kinetic energy.

In a simplified example - if the total load on the vehicle is 325hp - the hybrid can output 275 from the engine (from gasoline chemical energy) and 50hp from the electric motor (from the battery chemical energy) until either the hill ends or either the engine runs out of gas or the electric motor runs out of battery. In this case both are running at maximum output. Once the battery hits zero, the net system power is only 275. That's all the engine can muster. So - you have to choose then to either use all 275hp to power the wheels or to draw some of that power to recharge the battery and/or send to the electric motor. There are losses in the conversion to electricity and back, so it wouldn't make any sense to draw off 50hp to then get back 40hp EV drive. In that case the engine remains at full 275hp output and the hybrid system disconnects and the truck drives like a 275hp engine and in this example it slows down because it doesn't have enough power to maintain the same speed.

As soon as the total power to the wheels drops under 275hp, then you can keep the engine at 275hp and use the excess available energy for recharging. For example if the slope of the hill levels out a bit and now you only need 250hp - then you can draw 25hp for the battery recharge until the battery is full again.

What you can't do under any possible scenario is maintain over 275 continuous hp indefinitely or over 275hp average over time. That's all the system can produce. Fortunately it's rare to need more than 275 average horse power. It's mostly a matter of whether you need more than 275hp for a long enough time that the battery will run out. I think a big trailer on a long pass will do that. The battery just isnt very big.

And a secondary thought is the NVH and driving comfort. I've never found a scenario with my V6 4Runner that I actually ran out of power to the point that I could floor it and it couldn't maintain speed or accelerate. Not even towing my full size travel trailer at high elevation. But it's still not a good setup because it's not very fun to live at 5500 rpms all day. So part of whether the hybrid will tow well is going to be how well it does at 150hp and how often it has to downshift or jump up to high rpms. The TTv6 has a lot more excess power capacity to more easily pull without feeling stressed and that translates to driving not feeling stressed or fatigued after a long day. If the 1GR was completely isolated so you couldn't hear it or feel it or know what it was doing - 270hp would be more than enough. It would happily pull my trailers.

 

[M1911]

Didn’t think it was a plug in hybrid, but it operated like the other Toyota hybrids. Ex: the sequoia, at low speeds (under 18 miles per hour) it can roll along in electric-only mode, but quickly adds the gasoline engine when you step on the accelerator, returning to EV mode when you lift off the pedal. Now @Romer is saying there is no EV drive, so if you exhaust the battery that’s it? I find it odd it’s different from the other hybrid setups in Toyota’s line up….

I suspect it will be like the Sequoia, since it is effectively the same system. But I don’t see EV mode in such a vehicle as being very important. After all, it will have tiny range and only work at very low speeds. So it seems to me to be more of a parlor trick than anything useful.

 

[vantage78]

I suspect it will be like the Sequoia, since it is effectively the same system. But I don’t see EV mode in such a vehicle as being very important. After all, it will have tiny range and only work at very low speeds. So it seems to me to be more of a parlor trick than anything useful.

It’s not useful on a LC, but I highlighted the EV mode because the logic goes that if it’s the same as the other hybrids, why would anything else be different? None of the other hybrids lose the extra power the electric engine provides when EV mode is no longer possible…..unless we all missed the LC having an asterisk next to its power rating during the reveal, with a disclaimer saying the full 326hp/465 ft lb tq is only good until the battery is drained.

 

[malba2366]

What Romer said ^^^

The battery pack is 1.9kwh. Back of the envelope math ends up with somewhere around 60 seconds of output at the full 50hp. So, the utility of the hybrid system depends a lot on the hill you're on and how long it is. Towing on a perfectly flat highway in ideal stead state condition - the hybrid has no utility. Towing on rolling hills where it can balance out the load variation and recapture the downhill (I'm not sure if it even does regen on this one) - that's the ideal scenario for it and it'll be a big help. On a long steep mountain pass - you've only got 275hp steady output, so it would run out of juice in about 1 mile on the electric side and then you're all engine the rest of the way. BUT - if could be a pass that is rolling grade where it helps on the steepest parts and recovers some on the less steep segments. It's just really dependent on the terrain.

The issue with the long pass is that the hybrid doesn't know what is ahead. So it won't know to reserve some energy for the steepest parts. That's where something like Tesla's database of highways would be very useful to know the route and be able to maximize the hybrid system. This is more of a dumb system that is purely reactionary.

Also this is why I think a PHEV would be so much better. The system is all there for diesel beating performance except the battery capacity. Increase battery capacity and it'll be something pretty special.

Unless you are accelerating up a long pass you should be fine with just the gas engine, it has the same hp and more torque than the current 4 runner powertrain. If you plan on towing large loads up long mountain passes, this probably isn't the right vehicle for you.