2FE into an FJ80 – discussion

[tonkota]

I think the transmission should bolt right up. I bolted a 2f flywheel to my 3fe and the bolt holes had to be just slightly enlarged. Based on that the bolt holes for the a440 flex plate might be a little big, but I wouldn't think that would matter. If it really was a concern you could probably get a flex plate from a 62.

There are two types of 3F-E cranks. There is a difference at the end of the crank where the torque converter aligns. One is larger than the other. I think the 91+ crank has the larger hole.

The six bolt holes are the same size as well as the mounting surface for the flex plate/flywheel.

 

[RockDoc]

Thanks for chiming in A Ron

 

[RockDoc]

Some pics to illustrate a few of the differences between the 2FE and 3FE (lots and lots of pics in my 2 threads in the 60 section).

2FE in dressed down state:

Compare that with a 3FE in about the same state. Look at the difference in length between the top of the timing cover and base of the head:

The valves on the 2FE, with equal length and dressing between intake and exhaust (to run with a 2F rocker assembly, you can build it to go with the 3FE arrangement, but I neglected to check lengths before ordering valves, so I went 2F to suit what was on hand). Valves are stainless SBC 1.84" and 1.50" (slightly oversize to stock valves, stock guides and seats are reamed/cut to give fresh surfaces without the need to replace), SBC exhaust springs and hardware, Ford seals to match Chevy valve stem diameter and Toyota guide diameter. (tips on what hardware to use courtesy of Jim C.)

Same view on the 3FE, exhaust valves are longer, and dressed differently. Rocker assembly differs from 2F to suit.

Showing the extent to which the piston skirts drop out of the bore at BDC on the 2F bottom end.

.... and on the 3FE. You can see that the pistons drop out greater portion of the shorter piston height. I understand this to be one of the significant weak points of the 3FE bottom end. Sorry for the crappy pic, it was taken with the camera upside down underneath the block with little space...... best I could get.

 

[Hilux]

I like this idea. I would like to swap a 3FE into my 94... the only thing holding me back is the wiring harness and having to handle all the small electrical gremlins that will obviously ensue.... I'm an idiot when it comes to those.

I love a Iron head on Iron block, timing gear motor... But there is NO WAY I'd swap a 1Fz for it...

My friend, you need to look into putting a vvt-i head from a Lexus IS250 or 300... I can't remember... It was the the SC too, IIRC...

I know they swap that head on engines that never had that ECU. I do know there is a piggy back for the ECU to.

You might want to look into that as it could fix a few other problems to.

You might get better bottom end, and you might get better cruising speed MPG...and you might get more power. I've never seen a head, or know it's chamber cc. But if it's smaller, you'll be adding compression to... Heck, I don't even know if the dang thing fits... But I know if I had the time and money I'd look into it...


"Toyota' s award-winning Variable Valve timing with intelligence (VVT-i) technology utilises a sophisticated computer to vary the air intake valve timing according to driving conditions and engine load.

By adjusting the overlap time between the exhaust valve closing and intake valve opening, the engine characteristics can be changed to provide instant engine torque across the entire rev range. This gives the best of both worlds: Powerful acceleration and superior fuel economy. In addition, more complete fuel burn at a higher combustion temperatures leads to fewer emissions. "

Toyota - VVT-i (Variable Valve Timing with intelligence)

I love a 3Fe b/c it suits me. I love a 1Fz to. But dayum! That's thinking WAYYY outside the box there


/sidetrack...

 

[Land Speeder]

LOL. you just threw out alot of "if i had the money" and "I can't remembers"...

keep in mind. I've had more 1FZE's than i've had 3FE's... i know the differences... i also know more loyalists to the 3FE than 1FZE... In fact... there's more folks swapping out the 1FZE to something else than the 3FE has ever seen... mainly because the folks that have 3FE's.... are still running them.

I love a Iron head on Iron block, timing gear motor... But there is NO WAY I'd swap a 1Fz for it...

My friend, you need to look into putting a vvt-i head from a Lexus IS250 or 300... I can't remember... It was the the SC too, IIRC...

I know they swap that head on engines that never had that ECU. I do know there is a piggy back for the ECU to.

You might want to look into that as it could fix a few other problems to.

You might get better bottom end, and you might get better cruising speed MPG...and you might get more power. I've never seen a head, or know it's chamber cc. But if it's smaller, you'll be adding compression to... Heck, I don't even know if the dang thing fits... But I know if I had the time and money I'd look into it...


"Toyota' s award-winning Variable Valve timing with intelligence (VVT-i) technology utilises a sophisticated computer to vary the air intake valve timing according to driving conditions and engine load.

By adjusting the overlap time between the exhaust valve closing and intake valve opening, the engine characteristics can be changed to provide instant engine torque across the entire rev range. This gives the best of both worlds: Powerful acceleration and superior fuel economy. In addition, more complete fuel burn at a higher combustion temperatures leads to fewer emissions. "

Toyota - VVT-i (Variable Valve Timing with intelligence)

I love a 3Fe b/c it suits me. I love a 1Fz to. But dayum! That's thinking WAYYY outside the box there


/sidetrack...

 

[matt.mcinnes]

I would imagine I have no piston skirt dropping out of the bore as my custom JE pistons are more akin to the 3FE in hight.

I also have Jaguar con rods from a 4.2 straight six which are 1/4" longer than the 2F. This again would leave the piston slightly higher at BTC.

This may explain one of the reasons the 2F-ETI has been so reliable to date.

The cradle that holds the crank in place the other.

I and Ben have driven this engine at competition and in the 2 years since it was built only changed oil and filters. It's has been extremely reliable and easy to maintain.

Never any issue with the cooling system it sits just where it always has at a 1/4 whether at full boost or just cruzing.

I have been watching Ebay here for an 80 series 90-92 with a 3FE I have the bits in hand and the info to build a second for a fraction of the cost of the 1st. Though I would use the same ECU and set up.

 

[Nay]

keep in mind. I've had more 1FZE's than i've had 3FE's... i know the differences... i also know more loyalists to the 3FE than 1FZE... In fact... there's more folks swapping out the 1FZE to something else than the 3FE has ever seen... mainly because the folks that have 3FE's.... are still running them.

That's because there is an entire population of old iron loyalists who think an utterly underpowered platform that gets miserable fuel economy but lasts forever is desirable.

1ZFE owners are stuck in the middle - it's not really old iron and it's far from modern power/economy specs.

It's a lot cooler to keep the old girl who knows who she is (xFE) or to trade out for the younger blonde (V8) than to keep putting up with some crap some of the time for the rest of your life and never be really satisfied (1ZFE).

Of course, you can always throw a little bit of money at that middle ground girl and get her a new set (supercharger) and all is good again because she'll perform like the blonde without losing your shirt and life in the process. Just be prepared to keep adding

 

[Irish52084]

matt.mcinnes, what turbo did you use, and if you were to do it again would you use a different set up or keep it the same?
I like that you used a turbo, I'd seen the supercharger kits before, but not a turbo, until now.

 

[motorsargeT]

I was looking at my 2f on the stand the other day and my 3f-e in my 1991 and noticed the oil pans are very different and the 2f oil pan will definately not work in an 80 series. The 80 series pan is clearanced for the tie rod on the back of the axle and the 2f pan is not. That means you can not use a 2f pan, which means no 2f oil pump. So that poses the question, can a 3f-e oil pump and pan bolt to a 2f block? The pan should, but I can't seem to find my old 3f-e pump to try it out.

The only other option I can think of is to convert to a high steer setup like Slee's and run the 2f pan. That would get the tie rod in the front and out of the way. But that's another $1000 bucks out the window if you can get the ABS knuckles cheap. I know that the early small brakes will bolt to the ABS knuckles, so you won't need to get the later style brakes too.

 

[RockDoc]

My 2FE has the 3FE/62 pan and I believe a 3FE/62 oil pump/pickup (the 62/3FE pump and '83 2F pump were the same). The pan required only a light grinding at the top of the baffle assembly, where one rod bolt touched with each rotation. I've never looked at an 80/3FE pan or pump, so I guess you would have to check them on a 2F assembly and see. Perhaps Matt McInnes used them in his 2F-ETI, his is the only one I can think of that used an 80 3FE.

Post 154 here has more pics of oil pans and pumps between an '83 2F and a 62/3FE: https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/277349-help-me-plan-2fe-8.html

 

[Moby]

Could someone post a pic of the 3FE pan that is clearanced for the rear arm? I'd love to run 4x4 labs rear arm steering for my 62 (with 2fe/h55f). I just put a new 2f pan on and I strongly considered sectioning it but I didn't have time before I had to have the truck back up and running. It looked like I would have to get into the sump, so I'm interested in where the 80 pan is different.

 

[motorsargeT]

I'll take a pic of the 80 series pan tomorrow. The pan in that pic looks just like the 60 series pan I took off my 2f. It will not work in an 80 series. The tie rod will hit it.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

matt.mcinnes, what turbo did you use, and if you were to do it again would you use a different set up or keep it the same?
I like that you used a turbo, I'd seen the supercharger kits before, but not a turbo, until now.

We uses a Garret GT3082R with a .64 hot side

The set up worked perfectly and if I did it again I would do exactly the same. It was very powerful but also extremely drivable.

 

[motorsargeT]

I was replacing the head on my 3fe yesterday and came across another possible interference point with the taller block. The rear heater lines may be in the way. Not an issue with a body lift, but mine will not be getting a body lift.

I'll take a picture of the pan when I go to the shop today.

 

[motorsargeT]

Could someone post a pic of the 3FE pan that is clearanced for the rear arm? I'd love to run 4x4 labs rear arm steering for my 62 (with 2fe/h55f). I just put a new 2f pan on and I strongly considered sectioning it but I didn't have time before I had to have the truck back up and running. It looked like I would have to get into the sump, so I'm interested in where the 80 pan is different.

The pics aren't great but this is what an 80 series 3fe pan looks like.

 

[Moby]

Thanks! That is exactly what I was thinking of doing to my 2FE's pan to make room for 4x4Lab's rear steering arm (their Frombe steering setup is basically the same as an 80s but it normally requires a SOA to fit on a 40/60 due to the oil pan).

Edit: Ah, looking at this again I now see that the notch can be relatively shallow on the 80s due to the tie rod passing under the high pinion diff. It would probably take a much larger notch to run the tie rod above a 60s series diff and still clear the pan. Maybe not impossible...

 

[motorsargeT]

I checked the crank pilots of the 85 2f and my 91 3fe and while they are different, the converter pops right in. The large initial recess is where the converter sits, not where the pilot bearing sits. So an A440f converter from an 80 series will work with a 2f. I'll get pics when the 2f is back from the machine shop. I should have it in a couple of weeks. Then test fitting in a 80 series chassis will be next.

 

[RockDoc]

 

[motorsargeT]

I checked the difference in the oil pumps and it appears that the 80 series oil pump will fit. The actual body and pump are the same casting as the 2f pump, the lower plate and pickup are different. It will require drilling and tapping 2 holes for the pickup support bolts on the 2f block but thats it. I was worried about cranckshaft clearance with the longer stroke but since they are the same casting, it's a non issue

80 series 3f-e pump

pumps side by side

Difference between the pumps

 

[motorsargeT]

Stopped by the machine shop with the 80 series oil pump to have them drill and tap the block for the oil pickup support and found the 2F block already has the holes tapped in the correct spot. This is coming together nicely. Now if only the pistons would show up we could get this show on the road.