1999 LX470 Disaster-Advice Needed (2 Viewers)

[WaHoo]

"You need to prove that you did NOT do this, because if I have another shop pull the motor, and I find that you did it, I am going to take you to small claims court and sue you for the replacement cost, lost time, reduced value of the low-mile vehicle, etc...and I will win. And I will post this all over the internet on any review site that I can find, for years, and report you to the BBB."

If he isn't helpful, that should get his attention. If it took him 5 hours to get the starter on AFTER the manifold was off, something wasn't kosher.

I think that is the approach that I am going to take...MTF...Hell, I would even split the cost of the motor swap if he goes that direction, but not the labor. Does anyone know a reputable source for a long block? Also, what is a fair/reasonable price?

 

[97 AZ LC]

I think that is the approach that I am going to take...MTF...Hell, I would even split the cost of the motor swap if he goes that direction, but not the labor. Does anyone know a reputable source for a long block? Also, what is a fair/reasonable price?

Were it me I would soften gatormark a bit, e.g. - "I have done a considerable amount of research on this and have come to the conclusion that it is very likely, extremely likely really, that this problem is directly related to the work that you did on the engine. This is an outstanding long lived engine - to throw a rod at 121k miles, at idle, full of new oil is basically unprecedented. The engine ran fine the last time it ran under my watch. That said, I would like to resolve the matter amicably with your help. I am facing considerable financial exposure here. Tell me what you will do to help resolve the matter. I believe we will both be better off if we can work this out without having to go through a formal dispute resolution process."

 

[gatormark91]

Were it me I would soften gatormark a bit, e.g. - "I have done a considerable amount of research on this and have come to the conclusion that it is very likely, extremely likely really, that this problem is directly related to the work that you did on the engine. This is an outstanding long lived engine - to throw a rod at 121k miles, at idle, full of new oil is basically unprecedented. The engine ran fine the last time it ran under my watch. That said, I would like to resolve the matter amicably with your help. I am facing considerable financial exposure here. Tell me what you will do to help resolve the matter. I believe we will both be better off if we can work this out without having to go through a formal dispute resolution process."

OK, I like this better. If you think the mechanic did it, however, you should not offer anything towards the fix outside the cost for the starter replacement. This is a business expense for a shop - they make mistakes, they fix them.

 

[brando1]

WHY WOULD YOU OFFER TO HELP?
Get him to offer a resolution first. I would demand his answer for how to fix the situation.
First rule of negotiations, he who speaks first loses.

 

[flintknapper]

If it took him 5 hours to get the starter on AFTER the manifold was off, something wasn't kosher.

I imagine he mean't it took him 5 hours to install the new starter then reset the intake manifold and button things up.

That is an extraordinary amount of time but maybe he cleaned up some parts in the process. I cleaned the intake and throttle body on mine before replacing them....as well as the area around the block & heads and inside the 'V' of the block.

But...the actual replacement of the starter and reinstalling the intake didn't take me maybe an hour. And I had never done this before.

I am concerned that the mechanic alluded to a broken part on the starter. There just aren't many 'externals' on the starter that could break. (The battery cable lug, the rubber vents or the gear on the bendix).

IF the gear on the bendix split it could drop down in the flywheel area or fall off during removal and go down an intake runner wedging against the valves or going past. Who knows?

Bore scope....or better yet....pull the head and drop the pan for a thorough inspection should give some insight to what might have happened.

It's just such a 'stretch' to believe that a connecting rod (engine at idle) would just suddenly fail unless it had been previously stressed (possible). 'Interference' is a more plausible explanation IMO.

 

[AimCOtaco]

Very timely thread; my starter was just clicking this morning. I'll be sure not to drop anything down the intake ports when I R&R it, this is a great reminder.

I'd find out what was dropped into that cylinder first and then have them swap in a good used motor. I think that would be prefered to having anybody other than an engine specialist fix whatever is damaged in this one.

Sorry for your troubles, I hope you can get to the root cause (but it sure sounds like an error was made) and a good solution.

 

[WaHoo]

Well, I just left...paid my bill for the starter replacement, then discussed the "motor" issue...I took the advice of 97 AZ LC and told him that I wanted to let him make it right. We are going to bore scope the motor on Friday and go from there.

 

[creakycruiser]

I'll wage $50 to charity that he dropped something down in there or somehow drained way too much oil before letting it run.

 

[WaHoo]

I'll wage $50 to charity that he dropped something down in there or somehow drained way too much oil before letting it run.

I should know something on Friday...and nope on the oil...there was pretty much 7 quarts in the place it puked when the rod went through the pan...

 

[atnolan94]

Just read this. Can almost guarantee he dropped something into the cylinder.

 

[WaHoo]

Just read this. Can almost guarantee he dropped something into the cylinder.

So...that is the part that is sort of confusing me...I thought these motors were "non-interference"...and the only exposure would have been to the intake plenum. He says he covered up the ports when the manifold was removed, and I have to take him at his word. I also asked how long it ran before it grenades itself, he said about 10 minutes. Now...not knowing what the intake valve clearance is, I guess it is possible that a small nut, screw or small socket...

For me (and this is just a wild guess) it is more plausible that something off the starter housing wedged in the flex plate...

I will find out tons more on Friday, and if and when we pull the motor....I will certain keep folks here up to date in case there is something the forum should be on the lookout for (other than letting someone wrench on your rig)...

 

[atnolan94]

So...that is the part that is sort of confusing me...I thought these motors were "non-interference"...and the only exposure would have been to the intake plenum. He says he covered up the ports when the manifold was removed, and I have to take him at his word. I also asked how long it ran before it grenades itself, he said about 10 minutes. Now...not knowing what the intake valve clearance is, I guess it is possible that a small nut, screw or small socket...

For me (and this is just a wild guess) it is more plausible that something off the starter housing wedged in the flex plate...

I will find out tons more on Friday, and if and when we pull the motor....I will certain keep folks here up to date in case there is something the forum should be on the lookout for (other than letting someone wrench on your rig)...

"Non-interference" just means that the valves and the piston don't share any space. I.E. if the timing were to fail, your valves and pistons wouldn't touch. A foreign object in the cylinder, interference or non, can absolutely cause you to throw a rod.

 

[WaHoo]

That is good to know...and for my bank accounts sake...I hope we find something in there...

 

[atnolan94]

That is good to know...and for my bank accounts sake...I hope we find something in there...

Not only will you see a foreign object you'll see a ton of scoring and damage. And even if something caused the flywheel to bind, it was on their watch and should still be their responsibility. I think you have firm ground to stand on. A perfectly running engine doesn't throw a rod for no reason and it is in the best interest of the mechanic to try and convince you otherwise.

Best of luck with the situation. Life is always full of curveballs!

 

[WaHoo]

Well, they are not budging on anything right now...but when we see the cylinder, that might be a different story...I don't want to end up in court over this...I have told him that I want to give him the opportunity to make it right...IF there is FOD, scoring or otherwise...it will be time to play hard ball...and engage one of my lawyer friends if needed. I hope (and don't think) it will come to that...it is a SMALL shop, downtown Falls Church, VA...and they succeed on reputation.

 

[Deadmilenko]

This totally sucks, I bet, like everyone else, that something ended up falling down the cylinder hole. I wish you the best of luck and you wont need luck when the motor is pulled apart.

His reputation will be going down down down

 

[atnolan94]

I should also say, its nice of you to give the owner a chance. Its entirely possible that his mechanic made a mistake and is acting like its not his fault. Or the mechanic simply may not have noticed that he dropped a foreign object in the cylinder head.

 

[WaHoo]

I should also say, its nice of you to give the owner a chance. Its entirely possible that his mechanic made a mistake and is acting like its not his fault. Or the mechanic simply may not have noticed that he dropped a foreign object in the cylinder head.

The mechanic that worked on my car IS the owner...

 

[Deadmilenko]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, well at least when you go to court they only have to subpoena one person and not two.

 

[atnolan94]

The mechanic that worked on my car IS the owner...

Then disregard

I think it may have been a genuine mistake. But even mistakes have consequences. Hopefully he makes it right. keep us posted.