1999 LX470 Disaster-Advice Needed (2 Viewers)

[WaHoo]

Well, if you were following my other post (1999 LX 470 No Crank) you will note that I had the LX towed to a highly recommended local mechanic to have a the starter replaced (I am capable as I have built numerous 4wd in the past, but don't have the time or a garage). Starter replaced, heater tees replaced...owner of the shop starts the engine...runs fine (according to him) for about 8-10 minutes. Then he said he heard a VERY bad noise coming from the engine bay. The LX was puking oil from the front of the engine...once he got it up on the lift he discovered the hole in the oil pan (see photo).

I went over to look at the vehicle, it sucked. It appears there is a broken connecting rod (broken at the wrist) and it punched a hole in the aluminum oil pan. I am screwed...the motor had 121K on the clock, and was running perfectly until today. I don't know what my options are...I am not really comfortable just replacing the offending rod and piston.

I have NEVER had to deal with this, don't know how to even approach this. I did call my insurance company and they recommend filing a comprehensive claim (I don't think it will come of anything though). I believe the mechanic and don't really see any relationship between the starter replacement and a broken conn rod. There was a recent oil change (M1) and the truck was running perfectly 4 days ago. My mechanic will call me tomorrow with a quote...but I have a feeling the $$$$ is really more than I want to dump into the truck. We will see...

I guess I just needed to vent a bit at my bad luck, and find out if anyone has EVER seen a connecting rod shear at the wrist and not be running at red line. Oh yeah...and I owe my local mech $825 for the starter replacement that broke the s*** out of my motor...and yes, I know it probably isn't his fault, just my unfortunate luck.

Thanks for the time, any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[BJJCruiser]

Can your mechanic confirm the amount of oil that came out of that hole? I could see that happening if the engine was ran extremely low on oil.

 

[WaHoo]

Oil was full prior to the starter change, both he and I checked it...he was verifying that I didn't seize the motor...literally a Mobil 1 oil change with 7 quarts 1.5 weeks ago...and it puked out a LOT...

Like I said, insurance company is looking into this, and if cost effective, I may do a full motor swap...who knows.

 

[flintknapper]

Pull the pan...see what the REAL damage is. If confined to the oil pan (not likely), replace rod, piston, wrist pin and rings for that cylinder.

IF it looks like the rod banged around in the crankcase for awhile...then disassembly of the engine would be your best bet. Have the crank magna-fluxed, check for cracks at that crank journal.

I can't imagine anything that changing a starter would have to do with a rod letting go. But I can imagine several scenarios where an unintentional 'revving' of the engine could occur.

 

[WaHoo]

I thought about the "revving" scenario...I have to take the guy at his word, and he really seemed to feel bad about it. It is a very small shop in a small part of NoVA.

As for pulling the pan...agreed...but you can see the snapped rod through the hole (not in the pic though, crappy cell phone pic, and I was mad)...

From the Mechs description, it sounds like it might have banged around for less than a minute. I am considering doing a long block replacement...if that is too $$$, there is a LC specialist about 40 miles away, might have the LX towed there and have him fix it. Good thing about the long block, is that it is usually warrantied for 12 months.

I know this is the type of forum where most wrench their own vehicles...this is the FIRST time I have ever taken a vehicle to a shop to have something like this done unless the car was still under warranty. I am just blown away as I have NEVER seen this type of destruction except on a trail...and it was a very difficult trail in Nevada...

 

[Nick T]

How small of a shop? Does the shop have insurance? Is the shop owner offering to help fix it? The vehicle was in his care when it happened. Not pointing fingers, but the intake manifold does have to come off for a starter replacement. A foreign object could have fallen into a cylinder, a combination of something wedged against the cylinder and revving the engine "could" have caused the incident. I would have thought a valve get bent before a rod is broken. Although this scenario is unlikely, there is a chance shoddy workmanship was the underlying cause especially if it was running fine before the starter replacement.

Never heard of a rod breaking with an engine at idle, only when it's under heavy load and pre ignition was the culprit. Even then it's rod knock not a full on break on a stock (NA) engine.

 

[WaHoo]

How small of a shop? Does the shop have insurance? Is the shop owner offering to help fix it? The vehicle was in his care when it happened. Not pointing fingers, but the intake manifold does have to come off for a starter replacement. A foreign object could have fallen into a cylinder, a combination of something wedged against the cylinder and revving the engine "could" have caused the incident. I would have thought a valve get bent before a rod is broken. Although this scenario is unlikely, there is a chance shoddy workmanship was the underlying cause especially if it was running fine before the starter replacement.

Never heard of a rod breaking with an engine at idle, only when it's under heavy load and pre ignition was the culprit. Even then it's rod knock not a full on break on a stock (NA) engine.

Sort of my thoughts...and the shop is small. I will see what he has to offer tomorrow...I am not looking to get over on anyone...but not looking to take it in the shorts either...just looking for an amicable solution.

Thanks to all that have replied...in a strange way, this has helped...If I had a garage and unlimited time, no question about it, the LX comes home, and gets a brand new, rebuilt motor, by me. Unfortunately, I live in a DC suburb...and work. So, I put my faith in the guys at the indy...

 

[gatormark91]

Something could have jammed the flywheel while the engine was being revved. Check for damaged teeth on the flywheel. If there are damaged teeth, the shop did it and they owe you a motor.

 

[WaHoo]

Something could have jammed the flywheel while the engine was being revved. Check for damaged teeth on the flywheel. If there are damaged teeth, the shop did it and they owe you a motor.

How would jamming the flywheel snap the connecting rod? Cylinder firing and motor can't rotate because of jammed flywheel? I will say, that he said there was some sort of "broken" ring around the starter drive shaft...I can get pictures tomorrow.

 

[gatormark91]

How would jamming the flywheel snap the connecting rod? Cylinder firing and motor can't rotate because of jammed flywheel? I will say, that he said there was some sort of "broken" ring around the starter drive shaft...I can get pictures tomorrow.

When ignition in the cylinder pushes the piston down, and the piston can't move... Something will break. I've seen con rods bent like pretzels.

 

[biggus]

I agree that this is probably not a coincidence. Most likely somthing your mechanic did (or didn't do) during the repair ended up damaging your engine. Go over the entire repair process and consider each step. Hopefully you can find some evidence and get some closure.

 

[flintknapper]

Pull the head on that side and inspect the piston top and cylinder. See if something went down that cylinder.

There are really only a few ways this could happen.

1. Engine over revved.
2. Object in cylinder (on top of piston).
3. Flaw in Connecting rod (inspect point of break, if metal is not homogeneous...it will be evident).
4. Piston seized in cylinder and con rod was pulled apart.
5. Hydro-locked cylinder.

 

[flintknapper]

If your mechanic didn't take the time to block off the intakes....it would be easy to drop something down one. I would sure want to see the piston and rod from that cylinder.

 

[WaHoo]

Yeah...trying to figure out how to approach that aspect of it...I need to find someone with a bore scope. He did mention there was some issue getting the starter off (he showed me a piece of the starter that broke off during the replacement). I am also trying to be reasonable as a consumer...I just bought this beast (In Nov 2017) and paid quite a bit for it because it was rust free, blah, blah, blah...not really thrilled at having to drop another $5K for a motor replacement. I guess if I had to find a silver lining it would be I would hope that we can find a low mileage motor that has already had the TB replaced...I am still in a mood about this...I need some good news today.

@Flintnapper...thanks for this photo...seeing this, and hearing my mechanic say it took him 5 hours (after the intake was removed) gives me cause to believe something might have made it's way into the cylinder or flywheel area.

 

[badlander]

Yes, look in the spark plug hole with a bore scope. Maybe a nut or his missing socket fell in there thru the intake runner and jammed the valve open and the piston crashed.

 

[gatormark91]

Perfectly good low-mile example of a motor that pretty much is known for a bullet-proof, million mile bottom end... confirmed oil in it (means no hole in oil pan) ... mechanic works on it ... and it immediately throws a rod when he starts it up?

Anyone want to start a pool on whether the mechanic was at fault or not? I cannot think of a scenario where he could possibly NOT be responsible.

 

[jlm43]

Yeah...trying to figure out how to approach that aspect of it...I need to find someone with a bore scope.

Unfortunately, I can't provide any insight into the issue. However, if you need a borescope, I ordered one of these a couple months back for work and they work pretty slick. They are not a fancy thousand dollar scope, but for the price, it works great. And it's Amazon, so you can have it quick.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074DS6DXS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[WaHoo]

Perfectly good low-mile example of a motor that pretty much is known for a bullet-proof, million mile bottom end... confirmed oil in it (means no hole in oil pan) ... mechanic works on it ... and it immediately throws a rod when he starts it up?

Anyone want to start a pool on whether the mechanic was at fault or not? I cannot think of a scenario where he could possibly NOT be responsible.

I am becoming more in the camp that the mechanic was at fault...I just think I am going to have a REALLY hard time proving it. Bore scoping is certainly something that needs to be done in this instance...I am trying not to become a jerk about this...I am seriously thinking of just writing this thing off as a very expensive lesson learned...I did touch base with the local (in Northern Virginia) LC/Lexus shop (OTRAMM) and talked with him about it...same response...very unlikely something just "broke".

The shop that the LX is at now is pretty reputable, hopefully they will not let me down...I also know that "hope" is not a course of action.

 

[WaHoo]

Perfectly good low-mile example of a motor that pretty much is known for a bullet-proof, million mile bottom end... confirmed oil in it (means no hole in oil pan) ... mechanic works on it ... and it immediately throws a rod when he starts it up?

Anyone want to start a pool on whether the mechanic was at fault or not? I cannot think of a scenario where he could possibly NOT be responsible.

I am becoming more in the camp that the mechanic was at fault...I just think I am going to have a REALLY hard time proving it. Bore scoping is certainly something that needs to be done in this instance...I am trying not to become a jerk about this...I am seriously thinking of just writing this thing off as a very expensive lesson learned...I did touch base with the local (in Northern Virginia) LC/Lexus shop (OTRAMM) and talked with him about it...same response...very unlikely something just "broke".

The shop that the LX is at now is pretty reputable, hopefully they will not let me down...I also know that "hope" is not a course of action.

 

[gatormark91]

"You need to prove that you did NOT do this, because if I have another shop pull the motor, and I find that you did it, I am going to take you to small claims court and sue you for the replacement cost, lost time, reduced value of the low-mile vehicle, etc...and I will win. And I will post this all over the internet on any review site that I can find, for years, and report you to the BBB."

If he isn't helpful, that should get his attention. If it took him 5 hours to get the starter on AFTER the manifold was off, something wasn't kosher.