- Thread starter
- #41
I don't know if it's a tire issue or maybe the vibration is drive shaft related? Not sure yet.
1997 with Death Wobble? ...help appreciated (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Wrencher93
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Have you done anything to the steering box? My money is on worn steering gear box. Mine only had 200k miles knit and truck drove really bad. I wish need up just putting in a whole new box feom
Toyota.
Some of the recommendations on here are pretty wild, like cracked frame. So yeah just take them with a grain of salt.
Toyota.
Some of the recommendations on here are pretty wild, like cracked frame. So yeah just take them with a grain of salt.
Frame cracks around the steering box are actually pretty common on 80s. Such a crack won't trigger/start a "death wobble" but the cracking essentially adds looseness to the steering/tracking and allows a small wobble to grow larger so it's relevant when troubleshooting a bad death wobble. The before/after crack repair tracking on my 80 was pretty remarkable and it was easy to feel the crack moving when inspecting it from below while someone turned the wheel back and forth. It's not the first thing I'd check or suspect but it's easy to look for. This isn't very different from a worn steering box in that a worn steering box is not going to introduce wobble but will allow one to worsen.
You can drive one of these (or any solid front axle vehicle) with loose wheel bearings, rod ends, cracked frames, missing dampers, etc. and not have death wobble though these will all make the wobble much worse in most cases. The worst death wobbles I've fixed have stemmed from tire or caster issues. Loose components typically just allow wobbles to grow. If you don't have good caster bumps can introduce wobble and then it can grow from there. etc.
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- #44
I agree with this line of thought. My current opinion is that my panhard bushings allowed the wobble to progress quickly and become violent - but the wobble itself was started by something else. I have Wranger MTR tires that have some age on them, so it wouldn't surprise me if they were at least partially to blame. However, the side-to-side movement of the steering wheel seems to suggest that the gear box may also be worn. Is there a good way to troubleshoot gear box wear without removing it? Maybe have someone turn the wheel with the tires off the ground and pay attention to how far it moves before the tires begin to displace?
- Thread starter
- #45
I really don't want to spend several hundred dollars for a gearbox rebuild but I don't want my 80 with my family in it to end up in a ditch either...
You have to fix the wobble source regardless. Removing gear box slack is nice, will make driving less stressful, etc. but is secondary to the source of the wobble. If your caster is in spec. then I'd suspect the tires myself. If it's a caster issue it will typically only happen after you hit bumps/uneven surfaces or similar so you can possible do some attentive driving to help figure out what introduces the wobble. You can also just have the truck put on an alignment rack to get your numbers, if you haven't already to try to rule caster out of the situation.
If you can reach through the open drivers window and move the steering wheel back and forth while you watch the input and output shafts on the steering box you can get a sense for how much slack there is in the box that way. It is worthwhile to do this test with the wheels pointed straight forward as well as when they are near the end of their turning travel. The gear box can wear more in the middle (straight ahead for the tires) position than on the edges (wheels turned). If the slack in the box is present with the wheels turned then you can tighten the gear box using the adjustment screw. Go easy on this adjustment and be sure to test for binding or lack of return to center, esp. from hard turning angles.
My 275k mile box feels great after a bit of tightening but I feel lucky as not all boxes can be improved this way. I kept tightening a little at a time until I noticed a little binding and then backed off a touch. Don't remember exact adjustments but I'd do it by feel for the most part anyway.
Lifting the front tires can make it easier to detect binding in the box, if you adjust it, but isn't necessary as you can also just monitor return-to-center while driving if you are gradual on your adjustments.
If you can reach through the open drivers window and move the steering wheel back and forth while you watch the input and output shafts on the steering box you can get a sense for how much slack there is in the box that way. It is worthwhile to do this test with the wheels pointed straight forward as well as when they are near the end of their turning travel. The gear box can wear more in the middle (straight ahead for the tires) position than on the edges (wheels turned). If the slack in the box is present with the wheels turned then you can tighten the gear box using the adjustment screw. Go easy on this adjustment and be sure to test for binding or lack of return to center, esp. from hard turning angles.
My 275k mile box feels great after a bit of tightening but I feel lucky as not all boxes can be improved this way. I kept tightening a little at a time until I noticed a little binding and then backed off a touch. Don't remember exact adjustments but I'd do it by feel for the most part anyway.
Lifting the front tires can make it easier to detect binding in the box, if you adjust it, but isn't necessary as you can also just monitor return-to-center while driving if you are gradual on your adjustments.
By the way, the following is pretty common knowledge and may already be in this thread or performed on your truck but just in case it's not:
You should absolutely have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth while you systematically review every joint/etc. in the system for looseness. Sometimes you can see the slack but more often you want to put your hand on the joint so that you are touching each side of the joint. This will let your hand feel if there is any movement. Sometimes a small movement is acceptable but if all is tight on one of these you can't perceive slack by hand on any joints. Feeling the frame around the steering box can help confirm cracks as well in my experience. Checking steering arms on bottom of knuckles (passenger primarily) is also important. etc. I'd do this with the engine off so that you can talk to the wheel turner who only needs to turn back/forth while you are checking a joint. They just need to move until they feel the weight of the tires turning in each direction, or a touch less.
You should also closely inspect the frame all around the steering box for cracks. Read on the forum for photos to help you know what to look for.
You should lift and check wheels on all 4 corners for play from wheel bearings or in the front trunion bearings.
None of that takes long or is very hard but I consider it a regular inspection and do most of these every year or more frequently as I work on the truck. I also do these as a first step before working on a problem like what you are trying to fix. You can quickly learn quite a lot about what needs attention etc... Of course not all of that is related to death wobble either (rear wheel bearing check esp.).
You should absolutely have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth while you systematically review every joint/etc. in the system for looseness. Sometimes you can see the slack but more often you want to put your hand on the joint so that you are touching each side of the joint. This will let your hand feel if there is any movement. Sometimes a small movement is acceptable but if all is tight on one of these you can't perceive slack by hand on any joints. Feeling the frame around the steering box can help confirm cracks as well in my experience. Checking steering arms on bottom of knuckles (passenger primarily) is also important. etc. I'd do this with the engine off so that you can talk to the wheel turner who only needs to turn back/forth while you are checking a joint. They just need to move until they feel the weight of the tires turning in each direction, or a touch less.
You should also closely inspect the frame all around the steering box for cracks. Read on the forum for photos to help you know what to look for.
You should lift and check wheels on all 4 corners for play from wheel bearings or in the front trunion bearings.
None of that takes long or is very hard but I consider it a regular inspection and do most of these every year or more frequently as I work on the truck. I also do these as a first step before working on a problem like what you are trying to fix. You can quickly learn quite a lot about what needs attention etc... Of course not all of that is related to death wobble either (rear wheel bearing check esp.).
- Thread starter
- #48
I've adjusted the box before, seemed to help. The truck is drivable as-is but I'd feel better if the steering were tighter. But as you said, something is causing the wobble to start. The new bushings are containing it for now but I need to find what it is before the panhard gets tired of putting up with it..
One more thought here with the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on front-end geometry. If you want to mess around with it, and are willing to risk extra wear on your tires along with other possible risks, you can do things like add a bit more toe-in (etc.) to essentially put the tires under some positive pressure while underway, if that makes sense. This type of trick can mask loose components/etc. in a front-end at least while driving straight and not actively changing the direction of the tires back/forth. Very little, or negative caster and minimal toe can put your tires in a floaty/neutral position which allows them to get wobbly much more easily due to tire out-of-round, imbalance or surface irregularities. Not sure if this info. is helpful but these are some basic ideas to keep in mind as you troubleshoot this.
At the end of the day though you don't want to bandaid things, you want caster/toe in spec, all components tight, wheel slack in spec. and no wobble of course
At the end of the day though you don't want to bandaid things, you want caster/toe in spec, all components tight, wheel slack in spec. and no wobble of course
- Thread starter
- #50
I have caster plates. Can confirm that prior to the plates the 80 was a bit if a loose cannon on the highway. Drives much better now.One more thought here with the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on front-end geometry. If you want to mess around with it, and are willing to risk extra wear on your tires along with other possible risks, you can do things like add a bit more toe-in (etc.) to essentially put the tires under some positive pressure while underway, if that makes sense. This type of trick can mask loose components/etc. in a front-end at least while driving straight and not actively changing the direction of the tires back/forth. Very little, or negative caster and minimal toe can put your tires in a floaty/neutral position which allows them to get wobbly much more easily due to tire out-of-round, imbalance or surface irregularities. Not sure if this info. is helpful but these are some basic ideas to keep in mind as you troubleshoot this.
At the end of the day though you don't want to bandaid things, you want caster/toe in spec, all components tight, wheel slack in spec. and no wobble of course
Do you have your current alignment numbers? Have you confirmed that there isn't so much slack in the front end via wheel bearings/etc. that the numbers are accurate? Depending on lift and plates you may still have caster issues.
Also, how were the plates installed? I've heard first hand of looseness being introduced by caster plates until the plates were welded, even though the plates didn't require it (dobinson plates). Not saying this is your issue but you need to understand the whole steering system in order to fix this efficiently (ie. without pointing the parts cannon at it).
Also, how were the plates installed? I've heard first hand of looseness being introduced by caster plates until the plates were welded, even though the plates didn't require it (dobinson plates). Not saying this is your issue but you need to understand the whole steering system in order to fix this efficiently (ie. without pointing the parts cannon at it).
- Thread starter
- #52
Land Tank plates installed per instructions, front edge welded to axle bracket. No, I haven't taken to a shop to get any sort of reading. That may be worth doing though just to rule it out.
I doubt you have a problem from the plates then. Yeah, you probably want your alignment numbers though I'd make sure you don't have excess slack anywhere before having someone check your alignment as the numbers may be thrown off by the slack. Steering box slack isn't a problem here btw, I'm thinking more wheel bearings/rod ends/trunions and slack that can allow the wheels to move around inconsistently.
- Thread starter
- #54
I would hope there's not excess slack in my wheel bearings or trunion bearings. They are brand new Koyo bearings installed per FSM less than 4k miles ago. Wheel bearing nuts were torqued to 30 ft-lbs since I have 35's.
- Thread starter
- #55
I need to check though.
Check your rear control arm bushings and panhard as well.
If suspicious of your damper, remove it run it without one.
I've removed dampers completely from my 80s for various reasons, and extremely rarely notice conditions where a damper would be of benefit.
They won't cause, and won't stop death wobbles.
Even if yours is dead, it's a distraction from the cause.
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If this ends up being JUST a tire that needs balancing, then I will go on record as saying the 80 series isn't as good as I thought. There has to be something else at play for the truck to shake that violently in a lateral direction. This wasn't vertical shaking like a really bad washboard road - I thought I was going to see steering components start to litter the road behind me. If that's 100% tire then I'm putting on a set of tracks and not looking back.
I'll almost bet my farm on it being wear or lack of torque on something in the front end. Not tires. (ps, I don't have a farm)
Worn tie rods (worn with ANY amount of play), wheel bearings, (worn or loose) trunion bearings (worn). Radius arm bushes (cracked and delaminating) or bolts ( not torqued adequately), panhard bushes or bolts (same as RA), loose knuckle/steering arm bolts, cracked RA brackets on diff housing, cracked chassis at steering box.
Death wobbles can start from a small bump or steering adjustment, the running gear moves in one direction, the body in the other. Then they bounce back to correct, it over corrects, bounce back again. Slop in any of the above combined with body roll etc allows the suspension/steering to bounce/oscillate back and forth.
I've had a couple of sets of big tires and bent wheels on a couple of rigs. Never felt they were the cause of death wobbles ever. Minor shake or vibration, yes, but not death wobbles. I've also had death wobbles in the same rig with balanced road tires on them.
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