12h-t freshen up and swap (1 Viewer)

[CenTXFJ60]

Try shorting the power and signal wire on the starter to see if ut turns the motor over

When you say "shorting the power and signal wire", I believe this is what we did when we jumped a wire from the positive battery terminal (on the starter) to the signal wire (plug on starter that receives signal from the ignition) on the starter. As McGuire noted, this did not engage the starter. It just clicks. When we did this on the bench (off the vehicle), the starter does engage. We are not sure, but does the starter need to be tested under a load to ensure it is working properly? Thanks, MJ's dad

 

[CenTXFJ60]

When you say "shorting the power and signal wire", I believe this is what we did when we jumped a wire from the positive battery terminal (on the starter) to the signal wire (plug on starter that receives signal from the ignition) on the starter. As McGuire noted, this did not engage the starter. It just clicks. When we did this on the bench (off the vehicle), the starter does engage. We are not sure, but does the starter need to be tested under a load to ensure it is working properly? Thanks, MJ's dad

Another note...the starter we are using was a 24vlt that was re-spun (professionally) and converted to a 12vlt.

 

[mcguirejohnson]

Okay guys I'm still stumped on the starter situation. Went and had it tested this morning at Napa, and it checked out okay.

I am using a battery with 850 cca, starter bolt is grounded to the battery, bell housing is grounded to the frame, positive cable is hooked onto the post on the starter and I am still getting a "click" from the starter hitting the flywheel. I skipped the ignition switch wire and went from the pigtail on the starter to the positive post and it was the same result except for one time it actually engaged and kicked over.

All of the terminals were cleaned with sand paper so there is good current. Like I said in my post last night, I am getting 12v at the ignition switch plug on the starter.

Could this be because I am not using the "starter relay" that is located on the injection pump side fender on the donor hj61 harness? I figured it wouldn't do any good since the relay itself is 24v while my starter and the rest on my motor is now 12v. My wiring is identical to how it was when the 2f was in. I will attach a picture of the hj61 starter system circuit.

*note my wiring is setup where from the fusible link on the positive terminal the black wire ("AM" on the wiring diagram) goes to the ignition switch and then ("ST1" on the wiring diagram) goes out across the dash through the firewall and down to the starter. It just doesn't make any sense why the configuration I have does not make the starter engage fully. I might be missing a small detail but I cannot figure out what exactly. The battery is good, it came out of our 6.6 duramax so I know that is not the problem.

Alright I am going to get busy making brackets and wait to see what everyone thinks...

Thanks in advanced!

 

[Oldtoy74]

Here is a snap from FSM supplement 87 onwards, just for your reference

 

[TLC Norway]

So, you have bypassed the neutral A/T switch, right?
And the starter works out in bench mode, by grounding it and jumping the two terminals?
But you can't jump it in the car, somehow... If I understand you correctly, the starter clicks, so the magnet gets energized, but axle does not engage/move enough out so the starter engages.
Could it be a flywheel mismatch somehow?
Just enough so that the gears don't mesh?Try moving the flywheel a bit, put it in gear and wobble enough so that the flywheel moves when you try to run the starter.

Sorry for the bad English, I'm a hung over Norwegian.

 

[TLC Norway]

On another note, the neutral tranny switch harness would be a great feature for safety, tie in a hidden switch and leave it open/off when you leave the rig.

 

[mcguirejohnson]

Here is a snap from FSM supplement 87 onwards, just for your reference
View attachment 1133325

That is perfect, I have the fold out wiring diagram like that for the 2f but the one you sent is gold.

So, you have bypassed the neutral A/T switch, right?
And the starter works out in bench mode, by grounding it and jumping the two terminals?
But you can't jump it in the car, somehow... If I understand you correctly, the starter clicks, so the magnet gets energized, but axle does not engage/move enough out so the starter engages.
Could it be a flywheel mismatch somehow?
Just enough so that the gears don't mesh?Try moving the flywheel a bit, put it in gear and wobble enough so that the flywheel moves when you try to run the starter.

Sorry for the bad English, I'm a hung over Norwegian.

I am completely bypassing the starter solenoid which is where the neutral A/T switch is located. Basically I am putting it on the bench, getting it to engage by grounding and jumping the two terminals and installing it in the bell housing with the exact same wiring configuration which is fool proof. when I jump the two terminals it makes more of a "clunk/click" sound as if it is trying to spin the flywheel but it is not successful.

It easily could be the flywheel, but I am hoping for that not to be the case... It is torqued to spec and I was told by the guy who I bought it from that it was balanced and ready to go. It has the same grooves that the A/T flywheel I pulled out had. I have put the rig in gear and moved it a few feet to allow the motor to turn but still no dice. There is not some hidden spacer on the flywheel is there? I noticed that the A/T flywheel had a little plate but it did not fit when I laid it on the M/T flywheel.

I could understand you completely, no need to apologize!

 

[Oldtoy74]

If you have a look at the schematic on the starter relay, there is the B-W/ B-R from ignition, also there is larger wire W that come from battery as well which runs through starter directly to starter, I'm thinking the power form ignition must activate the starter relay to open & throw larger amp into the starter.
What harness are you using??
The neutral switch (R/B loop ) where do you have that looped, it should at the harness down near the starter, as that is where the neutral switch harness pugged in, as it was located on the auto itself.
I would be considering to put in the starter relay, as that W wire from post battery is a larger guage than the others indicating it must need more juice to kick it over

 

[Oldtoy74]

Here is alternator schematic as requested

 

[mcguirejohnson]

If you have a look at the schematic on the starter relay, there is the B-W/ B-R from ignition, also there is larger wire W that come from battery as well which runs through starter directly to starter, I'm thinking the power form ignition must activate the starter relay to open & throw larger amp into the starter.
What harness are you using??
The neutral switch (R/B loop ) where do you have that looped, it should at the harness down near the starter, as that is where the neutral switch harness pugged in, as it was located on the auto itself.
I would be considering to put in the starter relay, as that W wire from post battery is a larger guage than the others indicating it must need more juice to kick it over

Okay I went to my local auto parts store today and got a generic ford (12v) starter relay as the one that came with the motor was 24v. Hooked it up: white wire is "W" on the diagram, black and white wire is ST1 coming from the ignition switch, and the black- red wire is hooked up to the starter switch. The click is more prominent now as the starter seems to be getting more juice. Still no engagement of the teeth. I will upload a video in a few minutes...

Here is the 24v relay:

Also I cannot seem to find the neutral start switch. As you can see in the u.s spec wiring diagram below it is no where to be found, I am guessing this is because automatic transmissions were not an option pre- '88 over here. Will the starter not engage fully if the neutral switch isn't either connected or looped into the circuit? I am honestly running out of ideas. Maybe a roll start will work? I should also note that I am getting 12.79 volts at the positive battery post, the white wire on the relay, and on the positive cable post on the starter itself.

 

[TLC Norway]

If you have a look at the schematic on the starter relay, there is the B-W/ B-R from ignition, also there is larger wire W that come from battery as well which runs through starter directly to starter, I'm thinking the power form ignition must activate the starter relay to open & throw larger amp into the starter.
What harness are you using??
The neutral switch (R/B loop ) where do you have that looped, it should at the harness down near the starter, as that is where the neutral switch harness pugged in, as it was located on the auto itself.
I would be considering to put in the starter relay, as that W wire from post battery is a larger guage than the others indicating it must need more juice to kick it over

From what i can see on the updated drawing above, he has B (thick) wire directly to battery from terminal 30 at starter.
If big enough, that should do it, and of course the battery is grounded to the frame, chassis and engine in good manner.

I still believe there's a chance for flywheel mismatch, since it checks out in bench mode.

 

[Oldtoy74]

If the auto plug neutral switch is not on your harness, you could probably discount from the equation completely. I thought you had a 12ht harness.
I can't see how the fly wheel would have a mismatch of the teeth, you do have a 2H 12ht flywheel I'm assuming,
It might worth a try to push start and see if you can get some compression going?

 

[mcguirejohnson]

From what i can see on the updated drawing above, he has B (thick) wire directly to battery from terminal 30 at starter.
If big enough, that should do it, and of course the battery is grounded to the frame, chassis and engine in good manner.

I still believe there's a chance for flywheel mismatch, since it checks out in bench mode.

Yes "b" the positive cable is connected straight to the starter. The starter is grounded from the body, and negative post on the battery. Also I have a short ground cable from the bell housing to the frame.

My dad is thinking we should pull the trans and see how the starter is engaging the teeth on the flywheel. It is a 2H/12h-t flywheel torqued to spec, so I really don't see how it could be bad. Is there a spacer between the flywheel and crank? It seemed to go on only one way with the teeth towards the block of course.

If the auto plug neutral switch is not on your harness, you could probably discount from the equation completely. I thought you had a 12ht harness.
I can't see how the fly wheel would have a mismatch of the teeth, you do have a 2H 12ht flywheel I'm assuming,
It might worth a try to push start and see if you can get some compression going?

Yes sorry I forgot to be clear with that. I am using the existing 12v fj60 harness and splicing in the necessary wires from the 24v hj61 harness (glow, tach, starter relays, alternator). I am going to try that Wednesday night when I can get some help, for now I am going to go back and re check the grounds and see if that does anything. I will upload that video shortly and attach more pics of how i have it wired up.

 

[mcguirejohnson]

Here is the video of the solenoid clicking:

It sounds to me like the starter is kicking out an hitting the flywheel. Would cracking the injector lines to lower the compression be beneficial?

 

[Oldtoy74]

Mmm, its a Doozie, Yes it does get a little confusing now, but at least you have different punters making you think of the possible causes,
Mine initial thought its the wiring/ not enough juice to kick over, TLC is of the opinion the teeth could be mismatched, you think the starter is hitting against the flywheel, This is good thread to start betting who's on the money? . Very interested to see what is the actual gremlin, Keep plugging away Einstein , it's only a series of deductions and failures that eventually leads to successful outcomes

 

[mcguirejohnson]

Mmm, its a Doozie, Yes it does get a little confusing now, but at least you have different punters making you think of the possible causes,
Mine initial thought its the wiring/ not enough juice to kick over, TLC is of the opinion the teeth could be mismatched, you think the starter is hitting against the flywheel, This is good thread to start betting who's on the money? . Very interested to see what is the actual gremlin, Keep plugging away Einstein , it's only a series of deductions and failures that eventually leads to successful outcomes

Yes y'alls insight is greatly appreciated. I am going to make some more adjustments to the wiring tomorrow and see what I come up with. Pulling the trans and looking at how the starter contacts the flywheel will be the last resort.

I will get it figured out and report my findings along the way. I suspect your guess is the culprit... We shall see.

 

[TLC Norway]

My dad is thinking we should pull the trans and see how the starter is engaging the teeth on the flywheel. It is a 2H/12h-t flywheel torqued to spec, so I really don't see how it could be bad. Is there a spacer between the flywheel and crank? It seemed to go on only one way with the teeth towards the block of course.

No spacer between crank and FW.

Wait a bit with pulling the tranny.

Later or tomorrow I can get some 2H /12ht starter teeth measurements, and you can compare it to that your new unit. There has been some differences, maybe @beno or @OrangeFJ40 knows teeth count or other intel.

Edit: and I'm certain cracking fuel lines would not lower compression. For that, you'll have to pull injectors, I would wait on that too.
Would be easy if you had glow plugs [emoji14]

The engine isn't seized? Jack up a rear and put in 4th, turn wheel. Or get a wrench on the crank bolt to verify.
(I think the nut is 46mm)

 

[CenTXFJ60]

I'm not convinced it's getting in a bind with the flywheel teeth. Each time we take the starter out we inspect the flywheel and it's not showing any marks as if it's banging into it. Since it was resurfaces it's all shinny and has new paint on it. The engine does turn. Moved when we torqued the flywheel bolts and we've been rolling it in first gear each time we try to start it. Should probably be doing it in 2nd or 3rd since it takes two of us to push it in first. I'm on the road for work, but we plan to roll start it when I get home. With the fuel lines primed, are there any concerns with attempting this?

 

[niffa]

Make sure u got brakes. Good to go.
Manual shutoff is on side of pump. Good luck

 

[AussieHJCruza]

This may have already been mentioned, but, in case it hasn't, I would recommend having an object handy (not your hand) that will block off the intake in case she runs away.