1 ton front axle thread. (1 Viewer)

[Mace]

Should be D60 thread but..

HI^C
You made some points that I would like to discuss in another thread but do not want to colud the issue.

1. You do not like the provision to mount the DL to the TR using the stock shock hole, why is that?

2. You state that a D60 is the best axle suited for a Hy steer conversion. What difference do 60's have over Toyota axles? Considering that Cruiser axles are basically hy steer (converted to low steer) stock to begin with.

3. The bearing conversion on stock knuckles is VERU expensive and requires a completly new custom welded knuckle.

4. why do you think that a ram assist does little to add to the strength of a stock tie rod when it is mounted to it?

5. why do you think that an Atlas has questionable strength?? I understand them to be some of the strongest tcases out there.

6. I cannot see how a 14.50 tire on a 6"bs 10" wide rim would not leave the hubs in danger. If running drive slugs it would be different but..

 

[HI^C]

dang dude almost missed it, good to move to a new thread though.

1. mounting steering in a y style is less then ideal on any 4x4, big tires,
wheelin on rocks, etc... just because of the huge amount of stress placed on it.
It really is not ment to retain that much stress at that point on the steering, a
stabilizer shock to turning the wheels. Not 60 specific but depending on what
TRE you use some bore and retaper the holes which would only further weaken
the steering.

2 and 3 I was dicussing kingpin 60. 60 to toy axles well huge list, but will give man points.
closed knuckle design which lends itself to thinner outer knuckle casting, birfields because of this design. toy axles are the best IMO sized axle for a lighter rig and about 36-38ish tires, not alot of HP, before $$$$ to build them outway an axle swap. kingpin to balljoints I still stay with the kingpins. The eaz, costs, etc.. of replaceable parts on the kingpin all help it. I know of three different bearing setups for the kingpin knuckle that were available in say the last 4 or so yrs, I do not believe one of those required custom knuckles, which one you talking about? I dont think i have the info on the bearing kits anymore, been about 2 yrs since i thought about these, i have to do some searching.

4 each setup is different, how is it mounted, what kind of ram, what shaft size, what mounting ends are used, amount of travel, amount of vertical rise or drop through the travel, amount of deflection does the ram cause, etc........ Lots of varibles to say no matter what it made it (?) many times stronger. Like i said it does give it some, and another mounting point. remember those round bar bolt on axle truss kits that were popular? i watched a guy with one of those on his rig break a front axle going over a curb (scout 44) pulling in his driveway, the one he had was able to preload stress on the axle to help maintain the truss to the axle. I guess it was just too much and cracked the third section in two. I so highly doubt the axle would do it on its own, but it was some funny Shet no matter what.

5 nothing is indestructable (sp). Short version without all the math crap>
how many in tow rigs? how many in fullsize rigs? how many in either listed before
this question that wheel? Few. all above figure weight, gearing, engine power, and pressure on the transfercase. Now take a cruiser (rough numbers) v8, full tub, 1tons, 40s, etc... at about rough 4000-5000lbs. figure weight, gearing, engine power, and pressure on the transfercase, but put it at say extreme vertical position forcing load more toward rear axle. Pretty close numbers IMO.

Atlas has its place, stock heep replacement, lightweight contraptions, etc... this not to say few havent had good luck with them in different applications. some people swear by a lc case, i cracked mine with a tired/no oil pressure sbc DD it, will i ever attempt to wheel with a LC case highly doutful but more towards hell no.

alum case still not to fond of them.

my favorite gernaded atlas so far is, i think it was posted on pirate, i think a jeep going down a decline in rocks i think, coasted just a bit, stepped on the brakes and the atlas case broke into two. 4.1

just curious what order of strength would you place,
atlas,
double mini cases close to 4.1
dana 300 with 4.1 upgrade outputs

6 rim edge was just even to just pass with the lockout or so, and tire was like 2+ inches out from that. lockouts about 1" stickout, drives about 1/4 or so stickout with the covers on. it runs lockouts. i can now look again as the rims are just laying there.

everyone has different experiences and different opinions, i just happend to be more then willing to share mine with anyone who asks, LOL couldnt tell could you.

i think this just took about an hr to write, kept thinking how i wanted to say what i mean.

 

[wngrog]

I can agree with some of your points, but the Atlas is not "a replacement Jeep part" like you said.

Find that thread about the Atlas cracking in 1/2 on Pirate....I would like to see that one.

In order of strength:

NP205
Atlas (any configuration)
4:1 D300 w/32 spine upgrades F/R
2.7 D300 32 spline rear
Dual Toy cases

There are more Atlas's getting HAMMERED out there in all size rigs than you can imagine. If they were a weak link in any way, I trust there would be more discussion about problems....

I ran mine behind 350HP in a HEAVY Cruiser (4800#) for 2 years without a peep. Well, I don't wheel much though

 

[HI^C]

built by a strongly based heep company, built more then strongly based on a heep case,
built by an adapter company that would be too stupid $$$$ not to make it fit other vehicles.

could have been done by a auto manufacture at anytime, what about that new rubicon, well
it takes auto manufcatures a number of yrs to catch up with trends/aftermarket.

searching still for the one i am talking about, I think it was a blue heep it was in.
but i found this, weird.

http://www.ec4wda.org/lior/2002trails/pap1102/carnage/carnage.htm
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136546&highlight=broken+atlas

both the same

With warrenty how many people are going to publicly bitch about getting another new case cause they broke thiers?

How many AA sponsered rigs will publicly speak about it? most you will hear is in the event report " suffered broken front output" or such and that would be it.

SHHHHH about this
and the act of keeping some people quite, will maintain the good public image about any product. Or if all your allowed to hear is good reports, what will you think of the product.
not saying its a complete POS, but i think many get a onesided view of certain products in general.

greatly based on my observations and opinions.
to each his own.

 

[wngrog]

Damn man, you must also believe that the Air Force is keeping Aliens from Roswell in a facility in Ohio

I have to disagree with you here and it is from first hand experience. Not only is the Atlas II a great case, but it is extremely durable.

Man, breaking an Atlas is a badge of courage for most folks that blab about breaking on the net and you can rest assured, when someone breaks one, they will be sure to post it up as seen in the threads you found.

Remember when Longfield said folks could not break his Birfs? YOu had a mad dash of asshats trying to be the first to do so.

AA actually made thier first adapters for Early Broncos FYI. I am not going to argue with you on the net on the merits of Advanced Adapters, but I can say that every thing I have ever purchased from them has fit well and came with good instructions.

The prices are sick, but that is mainly because they have 80% of the market. As soon as there is more competion, if ever, the prices will be competetive.

 

[cruiserrg]

Dude that first link is impressive and I bet almost any transfercase would have broke, considering the transmission bell housing broke as well as the rear engine block casting. That guy had more problems than a "weak transfercase".

 

[HI^C]

I think i should just run a longer disclaimer in my sig,

I said

"everyone has different experiences and different opinions" also
"greatly based on my observations and opinions" and
"to each his own"

i thought that was enough, but i was wrong.

Glad you had good luck with your atlas and AA products, Whoopee, covered this in quotes above.

longs was what rough less then $500 in shafts, atlas is still what $2000-$2700 for the off the street person, little differece between loosing which out of your pocket.

The posts i believe at least the pics are done by his friend, and the post on pirate would not be his, and he is trying to hush the thread if you would read it. I just came across it, found it interesting and posted it here. It was not completely directed at the topic here, just weird like i said. Cruiserrg, i dont know exactly the events that happened, just posted as observation of weirdnessizum! LOL.

"strongly based" no where did bronco come in.

price is an interesting topic, and not even really talked about to much in this thread.

competition in current market is also interesting, you mentioned a very good group, why is the upgraded d300 shafts are so expensive? The plain quantity and availablity of the np205 and toy cases i think AA will never be able to reach, (none production vehicle). on a side note, whats up with the delay in the orion production.

80% of what/which market?

Anyways sorry mace thread got junked quick.

*SEE above listed disclaimers*

 

[wngrog]

I think i should just run a longer disclaimer in my sig,


longs was what rough less then $500 in shafts, atlas is still what $2000-$2700 for the off the street person, little differece between loosing which out of your pocket.

*

I am having a hard time understanding your dialect. Please explain this sentance.

 

[Mace]

Thread is not junked. That is exactly what I had in mind.

See I disagree with some of your points as well.

Course I disagree with some of Grogs points too (in comparison to the D300/toy tcase concept)

The stock stabilizer mount hole on a 60 is actually quite beefy.. Heck, that is the way that FJ40's came from the factory... and 1 ton ends make it even stronger.

It is very easy to set up a hydroassist system on a stock D60 TR. and have it be in line with the TR. That is the way I have mine set up. Even if I tag the low mount it will still have support on each knuckle. Making for a stout setup. Only time will tell if it is truly a good idea or not. My cruiser on 40's and coilovers/coils sits low enough that I do not have the room to have a hysteer arm on the DL or TR. If I was to do a hysteer system I would have to run the DL/TR under the Hy steer arm. Which would only give me an additiona; 3 ish inches of clearance. Not worth it IMHO.

You mentioned bearing conversions for kingpin 60's. I have never seen or heard of an upper bearing conversion for 60's that does not include different knuckles. I could be wrong, but if you could find that link I would appreciate it.

Although LC axles are closed knuckles there is only one reason for them to be closed. Keeping the grease in a BF. They still basically use a "kingpin" style design. 'Cept that they use trunion bearings on the top and the bottom. That was why the comparison of LC axle to D60.


Atlas' have proven to be one of the most durable tcases in all sorts of rigs. the 205 is beef. But it is also heavy and HUGE.. I would say that an Atlas is similar in strength to a 205. Plenty of big heavy rigs have beaten the piss out of atlas' and they survive. Hell there are people that manage to break 205's.. The Broken one on pirate was found to have bottomed out the DS HARD. That is why everything else broke as well. The Atlas is not indestructable, but it is Dam strong. A d300 with upgraded shafts does not hold a candle. Espically with the weak designs of the 4:1 kits out there.

New Rubicon 4:1 tcase is not even close in strength to a mini truck tcase. It falls into the non-interest tcases.

Now, everyone has delays. And AA is pissing off a bunch of people with the orion. But it really does not belong in this thread..
Nor do the rock box..

The 32 spline outputs on a front dig toyota tcase might be an interesting comparison tho

 

[AZFJ]

ok..The Atlas is recycled Coors cans..But ..I run with guys with big blocks and 42 inchers..and big Arizona waterfalls.....I havnt seen one brake yet..I did see one output shaft go..But the guy welded it back together and hammered it the rest of the trail!...And about everybody uses one in competition...even before the lightweight craze!..~Clint~

 

[HI^C]

above quoted would be two different english sentences.

first one, is a disclaimer to go with the now sig sorry i but the space in between them, These are to help prevent
on going rambling of others on huge stories on how i am completely wrong on
something. I am not god and do have difference in opinions, i can
respect that. They also are there to help with the people that claim i have
not experienced what i have in life (this helped start the "to each his own").
Or merely to interpret my opinions as you feel you need to.

somewhat a result of a funny act on my belief of aliens? which some how ended up in the thread.
LMAO.

The second was you mentioned longs and the warrenty they carried.
Basic explaination>
if you had a choice of loosing rough $400 or $2000-$2700 because you bitched
and then they were not warrentied, which would you loose. just representing
a situation, not going into to detail on how the actual companies handled the situations.

I agree about trying to break them both, warrentys of this type makes that possible with any product. I believe you will never hear all true stories or numbers of tranfercases broken.

I hate AA and atlas threads get long and boring, then throw in Air Force is keeping Aliens from Roswell in a facility in Ohio, bronco, longfields, nothing of which is really related to atlas or transfercases. Kind of junked, no longer constructive.

 

[wngrog]

above quoted would be two different english sentences.


I hate AA and atlas threads get long and boring, then throw in Air Force is keeping Aliens from Roswell in a facility in Ohio, bronco, longfields, nothing of which is really related to atlas or transfercases. Kind of junked, no longer constructive.

You hate AA. That makes none of your comments about the company constructive.

Atlas theads are long and boring? Nah, this one is hopefully proving to you that the Atlas is a good case from people with first-hand experience.

Air Force was an analogy to which hopefully you see that your ranting sound like AA and competetors have some sort of conspiracy theory going where the public goes not know about broken transfer cases. Sounds loony.

Broncos were brought in because AA developed the first Atlas for the Early Bronco refuting your claim that it was developed by "Heep" guys for "Heeps."

Longfields. Also another great example of the dipshits in the wheeling community. Agreed, most of the folks that intentionally go out to break something to get their names in the "Hall of Breakage Fame" generally choose something to break in the $200 range, not the $2000 range, but the analogy still stands.

None of this "junked" the thread in which I am just simply trying to point out that you have some sort of "hate" of the Atlas because you are bitter at Advanced Adapters in some way.

There is nothing I hate more than some webwheeler negative typing stuff about products that they know nothing about first hand and therefore negatively influencing someone, somewhere that made the mistake of listening to them.

 

[HI^C]

"I hate AA and atlas threads get long and boring," funny how you broke down my sentence to use it against me, please feel free to read in again.
The "and" includes both.

Loony, take it as you will.

Back to the "strongly based", not based on D20 bronco version, company makes most of its adapters and profit from heep. Please feel free to read again.

lot more people are willing to lose the $200, then the $2000 if not warrentied, that was a
very simplified example.

more about taken my words and trying to make them say more then what they said.
junked as we are stuck on one of 6 items which were up for discussion, and which my opinions were asked.

"nothing I hate more than some webwheeler" more directed toward attacking me. Do as you wish, whatever justifys your purchase (in this case), whatever allows you to sleep better at night. take these as you will. more of trying to discredit or humiliate me in some way, has no place here. I will leave you alone. More none constructive.

I was asked my opinion, "Atlas has its place, stock heep replacement, lightweight contraptions, etc... this not to say few havent had good luck with them in different applications." this pretty much covered everything including your experiences, until it was further picked apart that the actual specific weaknesses were shown.
I did not want to go that far, and i believe you had mentioned more negative points on the atlas then i did.

I respect your opinion, you said your piece, these attacks on me dont have merit or belong here.

 

[HI^C]

sorry mace got tied up.

How would you place the transfercases? say top 5 or so.

shock hole is beefy, but not as strong as the bar, the hole area is a
weaker point.

HA, it is just to hard to say it is so much stronger then it was without it. It is
stronger but how much.

Both above were influenced by what you personally had to work with on your
rig, they work, they will last. Others have and will run into the same situations
as you did.

I will see about the bearing conversion stuff, do you have the link to using
a different knuckle?

np205 125lbs dry
atlas 110lbs dont know if it was dry or not.
physically the np205 is bigger, but well within 2"s every direction (i cannot find
my measurements)

the orion mention was to the costs of similar competition with atlas, and why
is it delayed? I have no ties with the orion, however i do find it entertaining the
amount of people discussing it and the number of threads about it.
rubby case agree, just an example of true production coming somewhat around following the aftermarket.

 

[Mace]

HI, I think Grogs point was that you do not seem to have any actual experience breaking an Atlas. He (and many others) have had exceptional luck with them. So how you precieve an atlas to be weak is not based on experience. But what you have read on the web.

Which 5 tcases?? if you are looking for brute strength I believe that a 205 is your best bet. However, I have not had any experience with one. I did manage to pick one up tho the problem with 205's is the lack of low range options.. An atlas with 32spline outputs is an incredibly durable thing. I would not hesitate to stuff one in a 5000+lb rig with lots of HP and 150:1 gearing. Heck, 14 bolts are known to give up before an atlas does.

All holes weaken things to a certain extent (cept for dimple holes in sheet metal but that is off topic.) on mine the amount that I had to ream out to fit a GM1 ton TRE was minimal. and it is still plenty beefy.

As far as strength upgrades by running hydro assist. If it is in a similar plane you are adding another support point. Making it much more difficult to bend the TR. How much is hard to quantify. But honetstly, hot many will argue that two points trying to push the same way (DL on one side HA on the other) is much more efficent than one point trying to go one way and the other point trying to go the other way (TR on one side and a rock on the other.) It is all about forces and push pull scenarios.

Here is a thread about the welderboy bearing conversion. I know about the Ebay ones but do not think that they are a good idea (although I have never used one)
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173530&highlight=welderboy+kingpin+knuckle

the 205 can be fit into a cruiser but you will be shifting the motor to one side or the other to make it fit. It is a very tight fit. Atlas is tight as well but does not hang down as much.. 2" is a big deal to me.

the orion will never be as strong as an Atlas. Usign the stock Toyota outputs stops that from being a reality. AA is having a hard time getting it out in a timely manner. Which sucks for the average Joe that already gave them money. Honestly, as a general rule I will buy something from someone else before I buy from AA. But if I was going to replace my minitcases I would either go with Marlin's new toy or an Atlas. And I do run a heavy pig of a cruiser.

 

[fj40charles]

There is nothing I hate more than some webwheeler negative typing stuff about products that they know nothing about first hand and therefore negatively influencing someone, somewhere that made the mistake of listening to them.

Well said Grog... Unless you have some factual info, your opinions doesn't mean much.
Atlas II is a great tcase.

Please post up what kind of rig you drive. I'd be curious to know what kind of wheeling experience you have.

Did you ever read the "the god of suspension" thread on POR? That was the biggest POS thread of all time. I hope you're not tying to imitate this guy.

Disclaimer: not affilated with any vendor.

BTW, I have an Atlas II 3.8 with 32 spline outputs on my junk.

 

[fj40charles]

One more thing High C....... since this thread is about 1 ton gear and various tcases, there is really no reason why it is Toyota specific. I think you should go post your comments on Pirate4x4.com under "General 4x4" forum. I think you'd get some more opinions there.

 

[HI^C]

SO i have to break a atlas to prove it? got the extra $$$$ i havent broken a long but
know they are not as strong as people say, dont run them either. No i do not run a atlas, well
for that matter i currently dont run anything, LOL, rig in pieces.
Mace getting a pm on this.

any cases at all as many as you feel like listing, well that fit in the vehicles we are talking about.

you running Gm 1" shank tre for the DL? what did you do on the other side? Or
you the 7/8 shank tre? I been looking at the other side for the 1" shank that is why
i ask, i have part numbers just didnt go put one together yet.

The ebay ones you mention are one of the three styles i was talking about, these were close to the
other ones, each had differences though. working on this. never used a bearing kit like these yet either, at the time i believe they were all in the $300-$500 range, thats alot of stock repair.

205 is only about 1" wider then a cruiser case, is is like 1.5" longer front to back, i did a bunch of measurements and posted them somewhere (205 vs cruiser case) awhile back. 205 would fit same place crusier case would but was longer front to back. 205 can be clocked like the rest. yes it is short on the low range. buddies 465, doubler and 205 in a mini is also a tight fit big bitch.

i agree on the orion vs atlas strength not what i was going for. I was looking, it was just that part of the market where instead of someone going atlas they are/will/maybe be able to go with the orion.

side note, intereseted in the case strength question, and looking to possibly go with mini cases on a 4.3 powered mini on 38"s probably for a buddy, inform me. I do not do minis, i cannot keep them together on the street stock, damn 4cyls. I like them better then HEEPS so i can keep/help that buddy.

 

[HI^C]

fj40c i was asked and posted my opinions posted disclaimers to help people through the post.
I am aware of your feelings on this case and on other items, we have discussed through
posts on a board, and i think through pms.

glad to hear you have good luck with yours, and noted for the thread.

more attacking me, well I leave it at that.

again i posted little negative points, others fully posted the points i was trying not to bore people with.
and yes they were my opinions, do i hope to sway someones decision on whether or not to purchase one, i could care less, and did not even think about that while i post anything.
killing the thread.

human nature, others follow the masses.

 

[wngrog]

funny how you broke down my sentence to use it against me, please feel free to read in again.

.

The problem is that your sentances are so very hard to read that I may be guilty of misquoting you. If that is the case, then I appologize.

As fro personal attacks, the statements I hade to refute your opinions were not meant to be personal, if you feel that way I again appologize.