What happened to my 5VZ-FE?

[lurch]

The story begins with a trip to UT for a week of R&R and wheeling with friends new and old. It started Friday morning with an alternator change in the parking lot of Walmart on Sl33p3's new engine transplant in his 80. No Problem on the road again and charging! Stop in Farmington NM for a bite to eat and a beer at 3 Rivers Brewery while we wait for Alia176 to catch up. Pull into camp with the NorCal group at 11pm all systems good, performance as expected, good gas mileage, no abnormal engine noise. Drink a few beers before bed to mark the beginning of vacation and an adventure.

Wake up the next morning say Hi to everyone, cook breakfast, get packed up. As everyone is pulling out of camp I try to start my 4Runner and heard a horrible noise It sounded like a starter solenoid with a bad battery BUT on steroids! In fact I could feel the vehicle shutter as I tried to start. After 2-3 attempts to start I turn on all the lights and check to see if I've got power...check. Pop the hood take a quick look and try again 1-2 more horrible sounding attempts and boom engine spins freely. But does not start and doesn't sound like I have compression. At about this time everyone starts heading back to see whats going on.
After checking the the vitals we found I had air, gas and spark...WTF! Well time to check the plugs for clues, perfect color but soaked in fuel. So we dried the cylinders with compressed air and gave it a shot. Sputtered and back fired...it's got to be timing. Turns out the crank had slipped off of timing from the cams (that was the horrible sound). Spend the whole afternoon retiming the cams with the crank. At about 5pm we finish up and give it a test...nothing not even a pop or a back fire. But sounds like I have compression on at least 1/2 the cylinders.

Special thanks to Ali, Andy, Dan, John, Justin and Tom for spending the day helping me try and fix my junk! It was great to have support from everyone, of course I wouldn't expect anything else from the MUD peeps!

Vacation canceled time to get home...somehow...
Drag the 4Runner out to the main dirt road (288) and get a ride to Blanding UT, Thanks Alia176 and Sl33p3!!!! Then spend a day in the motel making phone calls and talking to everyone I could think of that had a tow rig. Finally settled on a U Haul that Blanding just happened to have (Abajo repair-very nice and willing to help). At this point I'm thinking about trying to get a U Haul up a back road to get the 4runner, but get a call Sunday and find out that they only have a 26' truck and not a 10' truck. Not going to take a chance solo with a 26' truck and trailer on an unknown dirt road that has a stream crossing and several switch backs...

At about 5pm on Sunday I get a phone call from Montella's repair and towing and its time to get a tow off the mountain. Family owned business (Frank and Todd are the owners) that has great service and very friendly. Frank the father, has been there for 37 years and knows a lot about the history of the area and is a joy to ride with.

Get the 4Runner back to the motel and the next morning we hike a couple mile to pick up the U Haul. Get it loaded and leave to go back to Albuquerque.

Tuesday I got the 4runner into the garage and start tearing into it. I found that I had normal compression on 3 cylinders, 1/2 on one and 0 on 2 cylinders. I figured I had lost 1/2 the engine on one side not random cylinders! Pulled the valve covers and found baked on oil and the oil that was there was very tacky. Give the engine a few turns and no oil making it to the heads...got to be the oil pump.

I've got one head off and the other is about 1/2 off, wow this engine is a lot of work to take apart! The cylinders still have cross hatching after 230k with no noticeable abnormal wear. As far as I can tell nothing is damaged beyond repair but will find out more when I drop the heads off for rework. As it turns out our desperate attempt to get some life back in the engine on the trail failed due to timing being set wrong by 180. Hind site this was a good thing! If we had been able the start the engine I'm sure we would have gotten it off of the mountain but soon would have completely died and destroyed the heads.

First picture is the heads today, the second is how they looked a year ago, and the third is the shear pin on the cam pulley.

 

[ToyotaDon]

It doesn't sound like an oil pump issue, if that's what you're still thinking.

The first thing I'd want to figure out is why the camshaft stopped turning, causing the belt to jump time.

My guess is you lost a valve keeper and dropped the valve, contacting the piston, and bending the valve. That doesn't fit with total loss of compression in 2 cylinders, though.

BTW, which cylinders were low? And which camshaft has the bent pin?

 

[ken_79-fj40]

The first pic looks nasty. Whatever it is it looks to me like you haven't had very good oil circulation in that head for a while. Blocked oil passage in the head perhaps? Maybe the cam seized in the head. If so that head is probably junk. Knock on wood my tacoma is running perfect at 260k and I was amazed how clean the inside of the head looked when I did valve covers last fall.

 

[lurch]

It doesn't sound like an oil pump issue, if that's what you're still thinking.

The first thing I'd want to figure out is why the camshaft stopped turning, causing the belt to jump time.

My guess is you lost a valve keeper and dropped the valve, contacting the piston, and bending the valve. That doesn't fit with total loss of compression in 2 cylinders, though.

BTW, which cylinders were low? And which camshaft has the bent pin?

It's got to be a oil circulation issue as Ken said so I'm not ruling out oil pump at this point.

I believe both heads (cams valves etc.) were stuck on the morning it would not start but then started to move after several attempts to start. The heads might as well be coated in a browning sugar and molasses. So far on the right head everything looks ok - no scratches on the bearing surfaces still slightly moist with oil. But I'll know more once I get the other head off and take them to the shop.

The low cylinders are 3,5,6 but I have a feeling that the timing being off 180 is the biggest factor. It wasn't until i got these readings that i checked the timing. The pin is bent on both sides, the right side is the one in the picture and is the worst of the 2.

The first pic looks nasty. Whatever it is it looks to me like you haven't had very good oil circulation in that head for a while. Blocked oil passage in the head perhaps? Maybe the cam seized in the head.

The oil passage on the right head is open and free so I'm guessing its either just after the pump ,before the pump or the pump itself.

 

[lurch]

Well looks like sludge...so the question now is how did I get this sludge? 10k ago it was fine and religiously change my oil every 3k-3.5k (believe me the engine starts to preforms worse at about 3k). My head gaskets look good with no obvious leak. The only clue I've seen that was weird is there a light tan slime I found on the inside oil cap. Any ideas?
The only only other place coolant could get into the oil would be the oil cooler on the side of the engine. Need to come up with a way to test it for leaks...

 

[ToyotaDon]

Moisture is a major contributor to sludge. It takes 10-15 minutes of driving at normal temperature for morning condensation to be evaporated out of the oil and removed by a properly operating PCV system.
Water is also a byproduct of combustion, so worn rings would allow more moisture into the crankcase.

Just throwing some facts out there to consider. I'm also assuming you're using higher end detergent oil and somewhere in the 10W-30 range.

 

[lurch]

Moisture is a major contributor to sludge. It takes 10-15 minutes of driving at normal temperature for morning condensation to be evaporated out of the oil and removed by a properly operating PCV system. Water is also a byproduct of combustion, so worn rings would allow more moisture into the crankcase. Just throwing some facts out there to consider. I'm also assuming you're using higher end detergent oil and somewhere in the 10W-30 range.

I've used Mobil 1 for the last 7 years 5w-30 (the weight the oil cap says). When I dropped off the engine I talked to Todd at Budlong and he brought up the fact that most modern oils don't have detergent anymore due to oxygen sensors. He suggests using about 10oz of Marvel Mystery Oil on every oil change to help clean the engine. What higher end oil would you suggest?

 

[spressomon]

Steve,
Are you positive the apparent water contamination isn't from within the engine? I.e., head gasket, water jacket, or?

Plenty of folks using Mobil 1 successfully. I've used Amsoil for close to 30-years without issue; typically changing out at their recommended 25k miles or 1-year without issue on numerous vehicles including my 212k mile 100-Series. Your mechanic's comment about motor oils being non-detergent is a new one for me...and flies in the face of all motor oil marketing material. In fact for air compressors a 100% non-detergent lubricant is available and recommended in lieu of motor oil because of the detergents they (motor oil) contain.

Are you sure you didn't accidentally dump bbq sauce in instead of Mobil 1? That was one smoky brisket!

I'm also perplexed we set up the t-belt/cam/crank timing 180 off...since we followed the FSM page about same. Can you elaborate more about this?

I don't want to tell you what you missed buddy...apart of the trip! But I'll link you to photos after I've gone through them

 

[alia176]

Steve,

I'm glad that you and the 4Runner got home alright but very sad about your vacation turning into one from hell. I know I kept saying that it could've been far worse and believe me, towing you out of Hole in the Rock would have been a feat! Looks like we need to get you out there and a do a make up run. I think some of us would be game to head back out there again and show you a good a time.

The pics below are after towing Steve back to the dirt road and emptying out his 4Runner, just in case some &^%$#@ decide to break into it. Thankfully, this didn't happen. Unfortuantely, some jackass stole the NATO gas cans from the swing out racks out from the 80s in the motel parking lot in Moab

While the 4Runner engine was getting worked on, the massive Coleman stove came out and the cooking began....again!

 

[ToyotaDon]

I've used Mobil 1 for the last 7 years 5w-30 (the weight the oil cap says). What higher end oil would you suggest?

You're already using one of the best.

When I dropped off the engine I talked to Todd at Budlong and he brought up the fact that most modern oils don't have detergent anymore due to oxygen sensors. He suggests using about 10oz of Marvel Mystery Oil on every oil change to help clean the engine.

He's probably thinking of the zinc phosphorus anti-wear additives that have been removed from the newer oils. They were found to reduce catalytic converter life.

Steve,
Are you positive the apparent water contamination isn't from within the engine? I.e., head gasket, water jacket, or?

Plenty of folks using Mobil 1 successfully. I've used Amsoil for close to 30-years without issue; typically changing out at their recommended 25k miles or 1-year without issue on numerous vehicles including my 212k mile 100-Series. Your mechanic's comment about motor oils being non-detergent is a new one for me...and flies in the face of all motor oil marketing material. In fact for air compressors a 100% non-detergent lubricant is available and recommended in lieu of motor oil because of the detergents they (motor oil) contain.

What he said.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Glad to see you're at the bottom of the mystery, and sorry you missed a remarkable trip. As Ali said, had that happened on the HITR trail, that truck would probably still be there. We had to descend the super-pucker shelf road in pouring rain which was sketch with working trucks.

The Mobil1 was not the cause of your sludging-it's about a sludge resistant as oil gets. If anything was added, that could potentially lead to problems, or more commonly a coolant leak into the oil. Seafoam is snake oil. Don't go down that road.

Let's all plan on a revenge trip next year about the same time frame.

Good luck with your rebuild.

 

[sl33p3]

We missed you for sure on this trip buddy, but aside from a parking lot in moab, that couldn't have happened in a much better place, and there NUMEROUS much worse places.... like Andy said, that decent down the shelf on HITR in the rain was a sphincter clencher... i'm not sure i even needed a seatbelt!

looking forward to the revenge trip...

 

[TrickyT]

Real sorry you missed out on our trip, Steve. But as the others have said, if your motor was going to suddenly turn belly up it picked a good spot for it compared to any where else on the trail.

I don't think you've found the root cause of the problem yet. Mobil 1 just doesn't suddenly turn into sludge by itself. There's a slow coolant leak somewhere that's made for the perfect storm.

If we mis-timed the cams by 180*, then the crankshaft isn't supposed to be at TDC when the mark on the cam pulleys is aligned with the notches in the head. That's very unusual. Of course it would help to look at a full size image of the FSM manual pages instead of trying to squint at the screen of a smart phone while on the trail. If you have the opportunity to post the relevant pages from the FSM that would be great.

Best of luck on the rebuild. Keep us posted.

 

[ToyotaDon]

There are 2 marks on the crank pulley; one that lines up with the mark on the oil pump housing, and one that lines up with the mark on a new belt.

 

[TrickyT]

We didn't remove the balancer from the crankshaft, nor the aluminum cover behind it, and so we couldn't see the second mark on the crankshaft timing pulley. But we could see the TDC mark and we definitely aligned the crankshaft to TDC and the camshafts to their marks. So I'm not sure were we went wrong -- would need to see it all again to know what our mistake was.

 

[lurch]

Now I'm wondering how I came up with 180 off...I may have jumped to conclusions! I've been go through is in my head for a couple days and can't figure out how I came up with that??? One factor is I had compression on half the motor but it still would not fire so I check for TDC and the cylinder was at the bottom. But from there I can't remember what I verified - the cams or the crank.

Guess I'll never know since its apart and being overhauled...meh The main thing is that it didn't run and I still have heads to rebuild

I'm testing the engine oil cooler next, this could be the culprit (figures crossed) otherwise I'm not sure how else coolant could get in the oil? Maybe the coolant supply to the valve body? Of course this would have to get past the rings and into the oil...

 

[KLF]

It's probably too late now, but did you consider sending some oil off to Blackstone for analysis? It would be good to confirm if there's coolant in it or not.

 

[spressomon]

It's probably too late now, but did you consider sending some oil off to Blackstone for analysis? It would be good to confirm if there's coolant in it or not.

Great idea! On past motors of mine that had coolant contaminate the oil side of the engine there were tell tale signs: White-ish exhaust, cream colored oil residue, etc.

Steve, any enemies or devious pranksters that might have had access and poured sugar or? in to the engine?

 

[OGBeno]

Steve:

So what is the global plan on this? Rebuild?

 

[Duane]

I admire those who want to rebuild but isn't a guy time and money ahead by just putting in a complete engine from a wrecker?