A bunch of 2FE questions- finally, an engine build thread

[TobyB]

Okey- doke, I've been snarking other people's threads long enough:
the engine that's in the truck (86 FJ60) is clattering away, and it's time to
get started on an upgraded replacement.

I've got an earlier 60 2f shortblock, and the top of a 3fe from an 89
(thanks, Elliot) and almost all the EFI parts together.

First big question- what's the stock 3fe head thickness?

The 2f measures 95.3mm,
but the 3fe is about 95.1, and I'm GUESSING it's been milled. But the FSMs
don't seem to have specs, and search didn't find a solid number.

Leading to the second question- what have people been getting for the 2fe's
assembled compression ratio?
And the 2f's deck height?
(I eyeballed it at zero when I tore it down, but didn't think to MEASURE it)

I got chamber cc numbers about the same as RockDoc's, (78cc, maybe?)but when
I wind those through to a ratio, it's getting up right against 9:1. Am I misremembering
that many cut the 3fe head when they do this swap? Seems to me that
I don't want to go much higher than this if all I'm doing is a bit of cam.

As to that, Scott, in my last trip to Delta, said I wanted the 'KC' grind for
a street truck, and given that he's been right about almost everything
I've ever asked him about, I went that way. Milder than I was inclined,
but then, Scott's usually right...

Another question- what's recent experience with ITM pistons been?
(given that factory seem to be mostly NLA, and pricey when they surface)

This block's worn just enough, and the pistons are scuffed enough, that
it's probably worth boring it and doing it just the once...

As to other random details for the head, I'm planning on just
smoothing out the ports (some have ridges, some have ripples,
some are smooth) and cc'ing the chambers, since the head's not uniformly 95.1mm.
It'll go to a shop for crack- checking and a valve touch- up, but
the guides seem really tight, so unless they find something I didn't,
the stock valves get to stay. The 3fe had been 'rebuilt' not long before I
got it... which explained the pounding on the camshaft, the binding on #5 piston,
the bearing that hadn't stayed in place... but the head work seems OK.
Deburring is standard practice, I guess- but is it worth putting a slight radius
on the edges of the chambers to reduce hot spots? That was common
practice for turbos in the 90's, but that was also a long time ago...

With the block, beyond pistons, hopefully just a crank polish, new
bearings all around (the cam bearings were a mess)
recon the rods and a quick balance,
and call it good- nothing fancy, nothing complicated.

This will be slow, as time and money permit, but I'll try to get a few pictures
going in the next few days...

Thanks all!

t

 

[RockDoc]

When I did mine, it appears (looking back at the details I posted) that I calculated a "squish" volume of just under 93cc for a stock 3FE based on a compression ratio of 8.1:1 and a swept volume of 659.2cc.

i.e.

(swept volume + squish volume) / squish volume = 8.1

(659.2cc + x) / x = 8.1

x=92.8cc


Since the chamber measured ~77cc, that leaves ~16cc that is accounted for by the head gasket thickness and any space between the deck "plane" and the piston.

If you sub in the swept volume of the 2F (705.1cc) you get a "stock 2FE" compression ratio of:

(705.1cc + 92.8cc) / 92.8cc = 8.6:1

I believe I had the shop that assembled my head aim for a chamber volume of 75.5cc or 76cc after installing the chevy valves. This has worked well with the KC859 camshaft. I've had the engine rattle once on a bad tank of regular gas here in Canada, and once in Montana when I forgot they sell lower octane as regular. Otherwise I've run for about 3 years and 50 000+ km on regular without issues from compression.

My 2 cents worth of experience, your mileage may vary depending on the roundness of your camshaft.

As it's the only engine I've built so far, I can't help much on the other questions. Looking forward to some pics and progress

 

[Yspen]

Cannot comment on CR - I just bolted down the head I got ( just smoothed out the ports of ridges ) .

I used ARP conrod bolts - purely cause I read somewhere that the Conrod bolts is a weak link . Get the parts balanced - some of the old 2F's were not very well balanced and since you intend ( with the KC grind ) to go into higher RPM ranges it makes sense .

Remember the oil galley plug modification before you fit the head .

I have the Delta 250S cam that is pretty mild and the tappets are noisy despite that . Not sure if the KC grind does the same but be ready for a more noisy sewing machine sound from the engine .
I used stock valve clearance and stiffer valve springs and it made it better . ( have a look here : https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/402283-hi-po-camshaft-valve-bounce-clearance.html )

Good luck and enjoy

 

[TobyB]

Hmm... Thanks, guys.

I did the numbers the other way- swept volume plus static volume / static volume and it came out a bit higher. I used 77cc for the head, 1.5mm for the gasket volume, and 94x102 for bore and stroke...

But I realized- it's all just math until I have a shortblock with pistons in it. Deck height makes a HUGE
difference if it moves a mm or 2, and it's adjustable with valve depth, too, so it's time to get the head done.
I did find another head that's uncut (but with 300k on it, the exhaust valves have sunk almost to Atlantis) so if the (slightly) cut head I have is marginal, I won't panic. Much.

RockDoc, your mold pictures are invaluable- they convinced me to smooth the lumps out of the short side,
and transition into the seats- and then move on! The ports themselves aren't bad, but the irregular
(port- to- port, especially) lumps need to go.

Yspen, thanks for the cam/spring link. I'm set up to rate the springs I do have, and I'll go from there.
I'm surprised no- one's mentioned the rope trick- you feed a (long) length of rope into
the cylinder, bring the piston up to compress it, then change the springs. And the rope holds the
valves in place...

Body harness showed up in the mail the other day, so time to get butt in gear and go visit the machine shop. And start combing out wires...

More eventually,

t

 

[Yspen]

In my build I have fitted an aftermarket harness and ECU . Since then I have started sourcing OEM harness and ECU to get the setup back to Toyota reliability .
Please post as much info as possible in your harness combing and installation

 

[TobyB]

Yikes- you can really go in headfirst on that harness- I got all excited about figuring it all out, and spent
hours with the labeller, only to realize once I started stripping it back, that you really need about 7% of
it and the other 93% is variously spare for, or unusable on, a 60.

But dang, it's fun. I'm only half- way through. One of the tricks seems to be to label the physical
points where it does things like go through the firewall, drop into a kick panel, etc. And that's not
obvious, sometimes, with a 'yanked' harness...

I have some pictures, but I'll take more.

On another front, smoothing out the ridges in the ports was really easy- maybe an hour with a burr,
and checking and comparing ports took longer than the grinding. It's easy to see how you could get
too carried away and kill flow- that cast iron just melts right off there. And the seat area really cleaned
up for minimal work. Horsepower? Probably .62, but it was fun, and almost free. It can't HURT to have
all six intake ports similar, and all 6 exhausts similar.

Another thing- the intake ports are almost as small as the exhausts. That seems odd to me...

t

 

[RockDoc]

On another front, smoothing out the ridges in the ports was really easy- maybe an hour with a burr,
and checking and comparing ports took longer than the grinding. It's easy to see how you could get
too carried away and kill flow- that cast iron just melts right off there. And the seat area really cleaned
up for minimal work. Horsepower? Probably .62, but it was fun, and almost free. It can't HURT to have
all six intake ports similar, and all 6 exhausts similar.

Another thing- the intake ports are almost as small as the exhausts. That seems odd to me...

t

Yah, I was helping Arnott1 start on the head for his 2H a few weeks ago, forgot how much fun it is to go at it with the die grinder. Can't wait to start on another head for the pig build....

 

[gregnash]

So for some reason I thought that the 2F-E conversion needed the long block from the later model 2Fs? Am I incorrect in that thought or can both be used (Short and Long block)?
Or is it when people talk about the "short block" they are talking about the 2F that came in all FJ60s and later model FJ40s, where as the long block was in the early model FJ40s?

Reason I ask is because I will eventually plan to do the 2F-E conversion (a couple years down the road) and want to use the block out of my 10/'85 FJ60 if at all possible.

 

[OGBeno]

Another question- what's recent experience with ITM pistons been?(given that factory seem to be mostly NLA, and pricey when they surface)
t

Factory internals are still available (pistons, bearings, rings, etc.)

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

So for some reason I thought that the 2F-E conversion needed the long block from the later model 2Fs? Am I incorrect in that thought or can both be used (Short and Long block)?
Or is it when people talk about the "short block" they are talking about the 2F that came in all FJ60s and later model FJ40s, where as the long block was in the early model FJ40s?

Reason I ask is because I will eventually plan to do the 2F-E conversion (a couple years down the road) and want to use the block out of my 10/'85 FJ60 if at all possible.

You can use any 2F block, just need to have flat top pistons in it for the 3FE head. I'm using a 1975 block with later pistons to work with my build.

Short block = no head
long block = block and head

 

[gregnash]

Short block = no head
long block = block and head

ooooooohh...ohohohoh...oh!! Now I get it, I was thinking Long Block actually ment a block that was long from crank pulley to flywheel dimension. Now I get it!

 

[TobyB]

Factory internals are still available

Huh??? I thought, from a thread a few months back, that 2f flattops
were NLA?

What's a set of .050's run, then?

Thanks!

t

 

[OGBeno]

1980-1987 pistons are still available--though none in the US. Will have to come out of Japan.

.50 O/S: List: $127.09 each//MUD: $95.32 EACH.

 

[Delancy]

1980-1987 pistons are still available--though none in the US. Will have to come out of Japan.

.50 O/S: List: $127.09 each//MUD: $95.32 EACH.

Hmmmm....too early to order the 1.5 O/S pistons, rings, and later rods?

 

[BDSeff1fitty]

Hmmmm....too early to order the 1.5 O/S pistons, rings, and later rods?

You don't need later Rods to run flat tops

 

[Delancy]

You don't need later Rods to run flat tops

Quantify "need", please.... Haha.

On the rods, newer is definitely better. As Mark mentioned, it's marginally lighter, but it's also much stronger because of the extra finishing on the I-beam.

In the photo, the lighter rod is the one that *appears* to have the i-beam machined. It is not machined, it has been "forged" along the i-beam. While the rod is still red-hot, the beam gets smacked in a press which compresses and aligns the grain on the edges of the I-beam. The flat areas are not machined away, but are made stronger. The rod picks up fatigue resistance by dint of the edges of the I-beam being much more crack resistant. The actual tensile strength of the rod beam is not significantly improved, but it is much stronger/durable in use because failures usually start as a crack at the outside edge of the beam.

more resistant to edge cracking = more resistant to ultimate failure

Thanks Steve for posting the pics

 

[OGBeno]

Hmmmm....too early to order the 1.5 O/S pistons, rings, and later rods?

Never too early to get the ball rolling considering everything will have to come out of the homeland.

I think your note to me said you were going to punch it out all the way.

 

[pappy]

Leading to the second question- what have people been getting for the 2fe's assembled compression ratio?
And the 2f's deck height?
(I eyeballed it at zero when I tore it down, but didn't think to MEASURE it)

When I did my project I was told that the 3FE head on a 2F block will yield around 9:1 compression. The instructions I gave the engine builder was to mill the block and head only enough to make things flat. I did not want to run expensive gas in the engine.

I can tell you at at 5000ft it will ping on regular, and is acceptable with mid-grade. In Mexico it pings like a SOB on their premium.

 

[TobyB]

Hmm, that seems to be in line with the numbers I'm getting- borderline for an old iron head...
Guess I'll cc it out as big as I can justify, depending on how the head does when it's getting cleaned up.

Wiring questions, now- the ECU gets both the Black/White start wire from the key and the Black/Red
from after the safety switch (which also does the fuel pump relay and cold start injector).
On a 60, is there any reason why they can't be the same wire? They'll be getting exactly the same signal...

and

where did you- all get power for the Black/Blue wire? It supplies quite a bit of (noisy) current to the coil and
injectors, and it doesn't seem like a good idea to tie it to the Black/Yellow that comes off the ignition.
Add a relay and fuse from white, maybe? There's room in the 60's block...

<edit>- oh, right- use the 62 switch. Then feed it power from the battery,
add the fuse (and I'm adding a breaker- otherwise the ignitor is unfused)
and the wire, and it's done. I'm making a harness adaptor from the 60 harness
to the 62 switch out of the leftover parts, so that's where the start signal will
come from, and I can pull power and stuff for other things while I'm at it. Relatively
elegant for the cost of a 62 starter switch- and the 60 switch is 27 years old, anyway.

thanks!

t

 

[TobyB]

I hadn't come across these as easily- printable graphics, so here's the
'81 FSM schematics- prints out as 4 pages, tapes together, and is almost
legible...

Number one of 4

Number two of 4

Number three of 4

Number four of 4

It's been a help in trying to figure out what's what...

I haven't come across anything more recent for a 60-
did the wiring really stay the same from 1981 through 1987?

t