TBI program for a 2f

[Trollhole]

I'm planning on trying an idea I thought of the other day. Lots of high performace cars out there that have a selectable setting for economy, sport, etc... Basically changing the ECU computer program for for different situations.

Why not do this for a TBI setup? Why not have a crawling, highyway, economy and HP settings for the TBI?

It's available to do. So I'm going to try it.

I've been reading about tuning software and hardware. It seems difficult but doable.



First the software.

Free. Though I will probably opt for the pay version to get emulation capabilities.

Tunerpro
TunerPro and TunerPro RT - Professional Automobile Tuning Software

TunerPro Features

Full bin editing capability raw or via definition referencing
Full bin definition editing capability including reordering and item comments
Supports publically available ECU files
2D Graphing with multi-point dragging
3D Graphing with multi-point dragging, surface plot, colored height map, rotation, translation, and zoom.
Function graphing (Ford-style)
Table manipulation functions for scaling rows, columns, and entire tables
3D table smoothing functionality with user-defined alpha
Compare the current bin to up to 4 other bins at once
Includes a bin stacking tool for compiling multiple bins into one image for switches
Docking windows
Bin Change Logging - changes can be auto-saved to a log file for easy tracking
Search for items by title keyword, address, or size
Rapidly list the differences between two bin files
View bins graphically for finding patterns and tables
Export bin data/contents to a plain text file for easy viewing and/or printing
Table range selection and editing ability - pull fuel/spark out of regions with minimal effort
Ability to Copy/Paste tables to/from Excel for extensive editing
Full-featured raw hex/octal/binary/dec editor
Easily check for the latest available version with one click via the Internet
Much more!
• TunerPro RT Features

TunerPro RT includes all of the features of the free version of TunerPro, plus:

Emulation functionality - Fully supports Craig Moates's AutoProm and Ostrich as well as XTronics Romulator, Speedtronics Prominator, and Bob Bailey's MAF Translator Pro.
In-editor support for burning and reading PROMs with Craig Moates's Flash & Burn and AutoProm.
Simultaneously emulate and data log using AutoProm or serial->USB converter
ALDL Data monitoring and logging - record to file for later playback
ALDL Dashboard and data graphing for easy viewing of ALDL data in-car
View/Log 3 additional channels of A/D (WBO2, etc) using the AutoProm
ALDL Dashboard for easy in-car viewing of critical real-time engine data
Easily view engine parameters and state information via easy to use tabs
View parameter history in 4 simultaneous side scrolling charts


The burner I plan on using.

APU1 AutoProm Package: USB Version- backordered 'til 6/13/08 [APU1] - $329.00 : Moates.Net


APU1 AutoProm Package: USB Version- backordered 'til 6/13/08 [Model: APU1] $329.00


Does everything in one package, one USB-based device! USB-powered, so no power supply needed. Chip burning/reading, datalogging, and realtime emulation. Performs ALDL communications at 160/8192 baud, programs AT29C256, 27SF512, and AM29F040 chips. Has 3-channel 0-5v 10-bit A/D provision fpr wideband and other datalogging. Includes AutoProm device, 28-pin 18-inch emulation cable, OBD1-style ALDL cable CABL1, 6-ft USB cable, 1x 27SF512 chip, 1x 29F040 chip, and Mark Mansur's "TunerPro RT" Software license. PLEASE READ through product documentation to understand some of the features of this all-in-one, datalogging, realtime emulation tuning, and chip burning hardware. Keep in mind you'll still need a chip adapter and probably a ZIF, so select them from the Adapters and Sockets categories if you don't have them already. Fully compatible with TunerPro RT and TunerCat.

The switch

G3 Bank Switching Adapter [G3] - $55.00 : Moates.Net

Used to switch between multiple programs, even while car is running. Can be used in General Motors applications such as 1986-92 TPI Camaro/Firebird/Corvette, 1993 LT1, and 1993-1995 TBI trucks. Replaces the chip in applications which originally used the 27C128, 27C256, and 27C512 chips. Similar to the 'G1', but with memory bank switching capability. Can be used as single-bank unit also with proper jumper settings. Designed for use with 29C256/27SF512/29F040 chips. Local switch included, but also compatible with the 'EX' remote.

The control box

EX Remote Switch /w/LED [EX] - $25.00 : Moates.Net

Remote switchbox for multi-bank setups like the G2X, GX, and G3. Has a red single-digit LED display to show which program bank is selected. It's about the size of a car alarm remote, with pushbuttons to select from different memory banks. Comes with 6-foot ribbon cable for remote mounting.

Here is a video illustrating how to operate the unit:
http://www.moates.net/tutorials/new_ex_v01.wmv

Now all I need to do is get my inital ECU running and copy over the original program and start modifying it to some flash chips.




The How

Good things to read to get you and me started and know what the hell I'm doing.

Programming PROMs for your Thirdgen Fuel Injected F-Body: Part I - ThirdGen.org

EPROM Tuning Software - FSC Forum

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/238965-not-so-black-magic.html

http://www.edgesz28.com/edgesZ28/suburban/tuning/chips_know_it_all-200.pdf

http://www.thirdgen.org/promintro

Connectors.

www.eficonnection.com

 

[bandy rooster]

did you make your aldl cable yet, or are you going to purchase it?

sounds like you have started to collect some decent information...

 

[Coolerman]

Damn Troll! First the Big Gay build now this. I used to do a lot of Eprom programming back in my Apple II days. Machine code for the 6502 1MHz processor was a blast! (For you newbies (born after 1985) that was the computer that started the PC explosion.)

Anyway I look forward to your write up on this. The 2F I have sitting on a trailer would just love to have TBI installed, IF I can get the current project finished that is......

 

[Trollhole]

did you make your aldl cable yet, or are you going to purchase it?

sounds like you have started to collect some decent information...

The kit above has one that comes with it.

 

[malcb]

Haven't read all the text in the post but I can see what the thinking is and I am working around the same thoughts. I have come to the conclusion that there are significant diferences between the fully electronic engines (or perhaps I should say cars) and a fuel injected 2F. TBI or MPI.

a) 2F with fuel injection is only going to give you control over fuel or air fuel ratio, a "fly by wire" throttle controlled engine can mess with your right foot input an this is a large part of the "settings"

b) A large part of the settings is the integration of auto gearboxes and suspension, not avaliable on my LC.

c) the traction control element of the settings won't be avaliable, well not on mine.

d) the main "tuning" variation within the map is acceleration vrs cruise, with perhaps a wide band closed loop providing the best chance at leaning out the a/f for cruise and gaining some fuel economy.

Not suggesting it's a poor idea - just wondering if the what the variations would be. I suppose it might be possiable to alter idle speed and alter some trottle response, perhaps more but a simple EFI is just doing the same job as a carb and a well tuned carb should be flexiable enough to meet all varying requirements.

 

[Sputnik40]

Marshall - First off, you're a nut - I can't believe you have kids, a wife, multiple Cruisers and time to think about all this krap.

That being said and to quote my favorite philosopher - "I only ride them, I don't know what makes them work." My TBI is run off the computer out of an Astro Van - I have an extra prom - and I recollect that the one I've been running in the processor had been reprogrammed.

If that's half correct - what exactly are you proposing that might be of benefit to me (selfish eh). Putting it better - are you using a different processor? Can it be manipulated on the fly? Or is it something similar to mine - can only be changed by swapping out the prom? Lemme know - I might actually look at my junk more. I'd love something that might be a little hotter - and if you can solve the famous GM TBI and 2nd to 3rd gear SM420 incompatibility/lagging issue you'd be a FI God!

In summary - just goes to show that my TBI has worked so well - I don't even remember what it looks like when I installed a few years ago...just jump in and go.

 

['74 UA FJ]

Here is my tunable TBI setup:

 

[fj40forlife]

looking at it. but with cal laws i dont know how if it would pass. I saw a fj40 with it last weel but it was older then 74.

 

[bandy rooster]

i didn't know you could even use the words pro-jection and tune in the same sentence lol

 

[cruiserbrett]

With whats available now, you might as well. with the romulators that can hold a number of the prom's it would be as simple as the diesel tuners that have the switch in the dash...

One thing to experiment with is the highway mode of the ECM, although that might be a 727/730 thing not 747??? anyway it leans out the mixture slightly when highway conditions are met(light load, steady state, and over say 55 mph) Supposed to save a bit of gas, but infact was outlawed by EPA(since it effectively didn't listen to the O2 sensor feedback), and therefor GM programmed the highway mode on speed to be something like 255mph to defeat it... its there still in the ECM program on the 727/730's for sure...

 

[joeyg1973]

ahem... megasquirt

Ahem... wasn't your whole argument about not using the MS2 because you wanted to do this on the cheap and not get too complicated because you didn't have the time with the kids and wife and all? I believe that at the time I argued that it would be better to get the MS2 because even though you were not planning on it, you would eventually want to do more with the TBI and the computer and that it was going to cost you and arm and a leg to do it. I am just busting your chops, don't blow a gasket.

I am already doing with with my MS2 box. I have 2 curves one for economy where my AFR is way up around 20 at cruise and one for power with the AFR at 14.7. It cost me less than 10 dollars to modify the my MS2 box to do this and about 15 minutes to upload the new MS2extra code.

MS2-Extra Hardware Manual



I will let the thread continue... not hijack it.

 

[cruiserbrett]

AFR around 20???

Sounds like youre going to kill the pistons/valves soon...

Anyhow, megasquirt. Great. Tell me how many junkyards you can find magasquirt in when you soak an ECM in a watercrossing....or have some other catastrophic problem with the ECM. with a spare EPROM(which Trollhole can easily program) in a ziplock bag in the glove box, you have cross-country parts availability...there are '747 ECM's in just about every junkyard in the country.

while there are other ways to skin a cat, there are ways that work, are plenty tunable, and with the romulators out today, are perfectly tunable...

 

[joeyg1973]

AFR around 20???

Sounds like youre going to kill the pistons/valves soon...

Anyhow, megasquirt. Great. Tell me how many junkyards you can find magasquirt in when you soak an ECM in a watercrossing....or have some other catastrophic problem with the ECM. with a spare EPROM(which Trollhole can easily program) in a ziplock bag in the glove box, you have cross-country parts availability...there are '747 ECM's in just about every junkyard in the country.

Yeah my AFR is high and I will probably take it down a bit more. But it is still kinda cool to be able to do that.

Let's not start a holy flame war here Brett. My ECM is not going to get soaked on a water crossing, the box is completely water proof. So are all the connectors. I don't need to worry about blowing an ECM or other part for that matter because I built it all myself and used very high quality material. It's the arguement of quantity vs. quality. There are trade offs to each. The blown ECM arguement really doesn't hold water with either platform with the MTBF of solid state components now a days. We are talking 10 plus years here, no automotive motor is ever going to approach close to that in operation hours.

while there are other ways to skin a cat, there are ways that work, are plenty tunable, and with the romulators out today, are perfectly tunable...

So are they plenty tunable or perfectly tunable?

Yes there are plenty of other ways to skin a cat, and my way works just as good as the 747 to do the very basic ECM functions. My main point is that it is cheaper and easier to make the MS to do a lot of different things that you cannot make the 747 do. I am currently only limited as to what I can make the MS do by the number of IO ports I have.

 

['74 UA FJ]

i didn't know you could even use the words pro-jection and tune in the same sentence lol

Lol. It starts everytime, never stumbles, and runs like a scalded dog. That makes me happy.

 

[Sputnik40]

Ahem... wasn't your whole argument about not using the MS2 because you wanted to do this on the cheap and not get too complicated because you didn't have the time with the kids and wife and all?.........snip

Bwuaahahhahahaha! Have to admit he has a point Marshall. Inversely, when you were first on that other thread you could not speak that your MS2 visions were going to work, nor do so in simple terminology. Glad to see it is up and running finally - did you do a write up on the final (e.g. costs, parts, etc.)?

Like I said before - I bolted my junk together with a bit of help - but unless it's fab/welding/or mechanical - as far as the computer goes - really just ride in em...when it comes to all the terms flying around - Romulator, is that like a Star Trek thing, or 747, isn't that a plane? I see how little I know - and really don't care right now (maybe some day in the future).

Hopefully when Marshall figures this out - I can stop by on my annual wheeling trip next year and take pictures and get dummy proof directions on how to install a romulator

 

[malcb]

Autoprom Pro-jection Usb Romulator Startrek Emulator

Now those are some odd words for a 40 series tech thread.

Joeyg1973, my MS is about to go back on with a new fuel system, would appreciate a look at your map file and perhaps a log file.

 

[Trollhole]

Haven't read all the text in the post but I can see what the thinking is and I am working around the same thoughts. I have come to the conclusion that there are significant diferences between the fully electronic engines (or perhaps I should say cars) and a fuel injected 2F. TBI or MPI.

a) 2F with fuel injection is only going to give you control over fuel or air fuel ratio, a "fly by wire" throttle controlled engine can mess with your right foot input an this is a large part of the "settings"

b) A large part of the settings is the integration of auto gearboxes and suspension, not avaliable on my LC.

c) the traction control element of the settings won't be avaliable, well not on mine.

d) the main "tuning" variation within the map is acceleration vrs cruise, with perhaps a wide band closed loop providing the best chance at leaning out the a/f for cruise and gaining some fuel economy.

Not suggesting it's a poor idea - just wondering if the what the variations would be. I suppose it might be possiable to alter idle speed and alter some trottle response, perhaps more but a simple EFI is just doing the same job as a carb and a well tuned carb should be flexiable enough to meet all varying requirements.

Got me. I know the ECU can control spark fuel and air based on thousands of calculations. I know with a carb you cannot get them setup for good economy and good performance. You get one or the other. I would think with the ability of changing the mapping on the fly I'd get the best of all worlds. It's worth a shot.

 

[malcb]

I would think with the ability of changing the mapping on the fly I'd get the best of all worlds. It's worth a shot.

That would be a goal and I agree it's worth a shot - whats worrying me as I get further and further into DIY ECU's on a 2F is how many options are avaliable, different methods of injector control, spark control, MAP vrs MAF vrs Alpha N..... I think I might be doomed to forever tweaking one last setting.

I have to say I really respect what Matt got done on his 2F / 3FE cross. To go straight into a full (blown) dyno run on a build as complex as his is amazing. I have been putting bits together for ages, although my approach is a little cheap, I look for useful parts going for almost nothing on ebay etc and am trying to work with what comes up and work out one element at a time, spark then fuel, then hopefully supercharger.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

I have to say I really respect what Matt got done on his 2F / 3FE cross. To go straight into a full (blown) dyno run on a build as complex as his is amazing..

Tks but the dyno was used to build the fuel and timing maps rather than a full blown engine test, that was the last part.

Looking at the AFR constantly with head phones on connected to the knock sensor little by little building up the maps is painstaking work not to mention time consuming. As for cost and I get mates rates at PGS.

 

[malcb]

Tks but the dyno was used to build the fuel and timing maps rather than a full blown engine test, that was the last part.

I appreciate that Matt, but in my terms that was still like going straight into a dyno test, I would have been messing around, working up from a basic map, road tuning and fixing things I got wrong for ages!