Water for fuel
- Thread starter Vicm
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Any links to the process. Dad used to work on porsches and german vehicles and claims to have done this with an old ghia, getting 50+ mpg
I'd sure like to know more about this. Does it really exist? Are you talking about a Hydrogen engine? A type of fuel cell or what? I guess I'm totally in the dark on this one. Can a 40 be converted, I think anything can be converted, but I've never heard of an engine running on water.
Enlighten me!
Enlighten me!
This should get interesting.
Educate us Vic !
dgangle
total rice
Maybe all the engineers at Honda, Toyota, Ford, General Motors, Mercedes...... aren't thinking outside of the box.
Maybe he is talking about water injection. I've heard of that being done.
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'Using it WITH diesel' indicates water injection to me. Piston engine fighter planes used it successfully, as did a kid who worked for me a few years back. He drove coast to coast in a 200.00 f250 with an inverted 2 litre pop bottle in a bracket with a tube going to his intake. Had a clothespin for a regulator to dial it in. He was actually a pretty bright kid, and he claimed increase in mileage, and very clean combustion chambers. If we're actually talking about using water for fuel, The Pacific Northwest will become the new Texas!
JohnnyC
Long ago TLCA# 2231
HHO gas:
HHO Gas: enabling a car to run on water
HHO GAS:
Oxyhydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
video:
HHO Gas - Gasoline Replacement
interesting stuff...would like to see somebody using it on a car/truck...would be a first for me to see
HHO Gas: enabling a car to run on water
HHO GAS:
Oxyhydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
video:
HHO Gas - Gasoline Replacement
interesting stuff...would like to see somebody using it on a car/truck...would be a first for me to see
I've seen a few VW buses with water injection. They seem to run well. It is a carry over from high altitude planes and gives a high compression ratio since it's taking up some of the combustion chamber and it's not flammable.
I wonder if the kits for VW's are still available.
I wonder if the kits for VW's are still available.
Not even close,
The H2O injection process is used to cool the intake charge when it is heated via compression(supercharger/turbocharger). The water reduces the intake charge temp via the latent heat of evaporation, cooling as it evaporates. Methanol actually increases the evaporation cooling and acts as an anti detonation agent, as well as a fuel. The reason "high altitude" planes use it is because ot the heating of the intake air via compressors. As far as increasing compression via volume reduction is totally incorrect, in as far the H2O in the combustion chamber is there as a vapor, not liquid.
Hola
eric
So if you have a huge solar panel on the roof to generate the electricity needed to perform electrolysis on a tank of water to make the hydrogen on the go then you can run the engine with the HHO for basically "free" 
The wiki link torches are pretty cool though, that would make a neat trail repair tool / party favor
The wiki link torches are pretty cool though, that would make a neat trail repair tool / party favor
- Thread starter
- #13
I was hoping to get educated myself.
This is the sort of thing I was talking about.
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The first time I heard about water used to run an engine was before highschool back in the 70s. It was a mechanic in Eygpt who did it and went to jail for it. That was a big story back then in North Africa.
Last year a friend told me that a bj owner is using the same thing in his diesel engine and getting twice the MPG. So I thought I might ask. It seems you can get answers for anything on mud.
Anyway if I come to gain any info on the subject I will share it.
Thanks for all the input. Wouldn't be nice to get more MPG from the good old 2f.
Vic
Anyone who says they do/have done this is lying, plain and simple.
"HHO" or "water gas" are alternate names for a hydrogen engine, albeit one that runs on a hydrogen and pure oxygen mixture, rather than hydrogen and air.
Its probably possible to run a car on hydrogen, but running it on HHO is so fundamentally stupid that without a doubt no one has actually done so.
There are a couple of reasons:
a) HHO cannot be stored; since the "fuel" already contains the oxidizer mixed in it, it can (and will) explode at any moment. This is fundamentally different than a tank of pure hydrogen, which can also explode, but must first escape from the tank and mix with air to do so.
b) Producing HHO from a water tank on the vehicle will require an electrical power source about 250% as powerful as the engine itself (assuming 60% electrolysis efficiency and 60% thermodynamic efficiency). If you tried to feed a 100HP engine from a built-in electrolysis tank, you'd need about 250HP of electrical energy driving the electrolyzer... pray tell where that would come from?? Solar panels would be MUCH bigger than the roof (think of a solar car, but 6000lbs and highly inefficient...) and batteries would just be defeating the purpose (duh, could have just made an electric car at that point)
c) HHO burns MUCH hotter than H2 and air. ANY engine would melt. You could not modify an auto engine enough to handle HHO due to the higher combustion temperature and due to the fact that without 80% inert nitrogen in the cylinder soaking up heat, you'd find up with many times more fuel, all burning, than usual.
Some of the discussion involves HHO injection, whereby the engine still runs on gas or diesel, but the HHO somehow augments the process. However you cannot escape the fact that it will consume MORE energy to create the HHO than the HHO is is capable of providing when burned.
There is no free lunch.
"HHO" or "water gas" are alternate names for a hydrogen engine, albeit one that runs on a hydrogen and pure oxygen mixture, rather than hydrogen and air.
Its probably possible to run a car on hydrogen, but running it on HHO is so fundamentally stupid that without a doubt no one has actually done so.
There are a couple of reasons:
a) HHO cannot be stored; since the "fuel" already contains the oxidizer mixed in it, it can (and will) explode at any moment. This is fundamentally different than a tank of pure hydrogen, which can also explode, but must first escape from the tank and mix with air to do so.
b) Producing HHO from a water tank on the vehicle will require an electrical power source about 250% as powerful as the engine itself (assuming 60% electrolysis efficiency and 60% thermodynamic efficiency). If you tried to feed a 100HP engine from a built-in electrolysis tank, you'd need about 250HP of electrical energy driving the electrolyzer... pray tell where that would come from?? Solar panels would be MUCH bigger than the roof (think of a solar car, but 6000lbs and highly inefficient...) and batteries would just be defeating the purpose (duh, could have just made an electric car at that point)
c) HHO burns MUCH hotter than H2 and air. ANY engine would melt. You could not modify an auto engine enough to handle HHO due to the higher combustion temperature and due to the fact that without 80% inert nitrogen in the cylinder soaking up heat, you'd find up with many times more fuel, all burning, than usual.
Some of the discussion involves HHO injection, whereby the engine still runs on gas or diesel, but the HHO somehow augments the process. However you cannot escape the fact that it will consume MORE energy to create the HHO than the HHO is is capable of providing when burned.
There is no free lunch.
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So I called my dad and asked about what he did two decades ago with the cars and water that I remember him telling me about as a kid after seeing some pictures of "funny" motors and he told me it was a water injection system that they did in a couple of cars including a ghia that he drove around regularly. He said that it was fairly tempermental but it did in fact work to increase fuel mileage by reducing engine temperatures and increase fuel burning efficiency. It was just too undependable to be used for any long term use. I also believe that it works in VW's and some planes because they are air-cooled rather than water-cooled and adding that water cooling effect helped.
He simply stated that they did not use water as fuel.........
He simply stated that they did not use water as fuel.........
ah, sorry, didn't mean to be callin your pop a liar, but i knew there had to be some confusion.
water injection is very real; i've even seen it done on a blown new beetle.
just to be clear though, HHO is NOT water injection. (actually HHO is nothing at all, just a term coined by snake-oil salesmen. but as they define it, its still not water injection)
water injection is very real; i've even seen it done on a blown new beetle.
just to be clear though, HHO is NOT water injection. (actually HHO is nothing at all, just a term coined by snake-oil salesmen. but as they define it, its still not water injection)
No worries.......you were right. Dad said they definately did not use water as an alternative to fossil fuels. Totally different process that increased fuel mileage..... I've studied a little on Hydrogen fuels too and know that Honda has been doing extensive testing and even has a "fueling" station outside the factory in SoCal so that families testing the vehicles can fill up. One thing to point out and was already said was that it takes more energy to produce the fuel so until we can figure out a way to produce the energy without using fossil or nuclear it just won't work. IIRC, the fueling station in Cali uses solar but it takes several acres? of panels just to produce enough fuel to power a couple cars. IF we were to try to make enough for all of our vehicles, every square acre of the earth would be covered with solar panels. With each soltion comes a different problem!
Not even close,
The H2O injection process is used to cool the intake charge when it is heated via compression(supercharger/turbocharger). The water reduces the intake charge temp via the latent heat of evaporation, cooling as it evaporates. Methanol actually increases the evaporation cooling and acts as an anti detonation agent, as well as a fuel. The reason "high altitude" planes use it is because ot the heating of the intake air via compressors. As far as increasing compression via volume reduction is totally incorrect, in as far the H2O in the combustion chamber is there as a vapor, not liquid.
Hola
eric
Nicely said.
Lots of confusion occurs because as the water injection comes on the fuel can often be reduced, this is usally because the water is replacing the excess fuel (over rich mixture) that was being used to cool the charge. Only relevant if the charge (air/fuel mixture) has got hot, ie supercharger or turbo at work.
I have read a crediable write up from a guy who made engines and or ran them at Bonneville, he made some good points with chemistry most was over my head and the balance of opinion is once the rich fuel mixture can't do the cooling go to water injection, as you lean it back you gain some power.
hey there this is along the same lines INVENTION AWARDS Six Strokes of Genius - Popular Science read this awhile back and the thread made me think of it again.
I have a brother who has worked along these lines. HHO or brown gas, will work in a carbureated engine, a little more involved with an injected engine. However, the hydrolysis process powered by the batteries, produces a low volume of hydrogen. There is enough to slightly improve MPG, but not enought to run the vehicle. There are processes to cause the hydrogen to break bonds faster from the oxygen, but is usually a chemical process, and very dangerous as pressures rise very rapidly. There are other technologies being advanced, but still a way off. I do have plans, however, for several cells to work together made by ordinary water filter, and SS parts. I've never actually built one, but my brother tells me has plans, and a tech bullitin from another scientist that claims that he can produce higher volumes of hydrogen. I'm kinda skeptical.
