Yet Another SBC TBI into an FJ62...

[xxfullsailxx]

and even with all the postings i've read, i still have some questions...

Hello all, and thanks for this forum. your comments and advice have been invaluable to the project i'm about to start...

I have had my super-clean FJ62 (by the name of "Fluke") since 2005. It has 260,000 miles on it and still runs and shifts great, but the time has come...the garage is cleaned and prepped, my wife is mentally prepared (i think?), most of the parts are here, my dad (with experience on CJ engine swaps) will arrive next week, and i'm about to begin pulling the 3FE and A440F.

-I have a '92 Chevy 350 TBI motor with 60K miles on it that has been cleaned, painted and resealed with a mild Edelbrock cam, rebuilt TBI unit and new sensors. It came out of a G-series van with all accessories and wiring harness and computer.
-The motor has the rams horn manifolds installed to the Walker "Y-pipe" which I think I can tie in to the MAF exhaust (I purchase a few years ago for the 3FE) with new cat & muffler, hopefully "in house,"
-The transmission is a rebuilt 700R4 from a '86 K5 Blazer. Rebuilt locally and came with a "new" lock-up torque converter.
-I have the adapter from AA and a transfer case bearing and seal kit.
-I am using a "Painless" wiring harness.
-I am about to purchase a Flex-a-Lite 180 electric fan set up. It is pre-shrouded and comes with mounting brackets and the necessary wiring and will hopefully cover most of the surface of the stock radiator.
-I am in Fort Collins, CO. and thus far, am not terribly concerned about emissions, but will keep in place what came on the motor for the computer.

Here are a few questions that I have been unable to find an answer for:

1. I replaced the Toyota fuel pump a few years ago after getting stuck (luckily at the hotel) in Moab. I understand the OEM pump can't be used for the TBI but was wondering if it could act as the "straw" for a second inline pump to supply the new motor. Any comments and suggestions on fuel delivery would be appreciated...Is there an "easy" TBI in-tank replacement pump?

2. VSS: I understand that I will need a two pulse signal for the ECM and I think that the OEM speedo sender is on the Toyota transfer case...has there been a solution worked out? Can I buy a VSS from AZ TPI or Painless and hook it up?

3. Silly question... What oil dipstick and tube did you use with the ramshorn exhaust manifolds? I bought one for a '92 Chevy P/U that isn't going to work...

Any help starting this thread (and project) would be greatly appreciated. I'm super-pshyched to get the ball rolling. We are hoping to get the majority of the work done inside the better part of a week, but we'll see what happens.

thanks again-
Darin

 

[oldwineo]

I'm using the factory (denso) electric fuel pump with a 93 TBI 350. It works great. I started with a frame mounted electric pump, but had trouble with it, so I swapped fuel tanks (I have a 60) and got a new factory pump about a year and a half ago. It's been great ever since. I think the trouble with the factory pump is on the Vortec motors.

Good luck with your swap,

Ken

 

[Elbert]

I don't know what the pressure rating of the toyota pump is...but I have a walbro pump on my setup that has worked fine from day one on my FJ60. THe pump is mounted on the frame near the rear axle area and pulls gas from the tank....pressure side is from teh pump forward to the engine. AZ TPI carries this pump..I hink you use a different version for the TBI as the pressure is less but anyway the walbro is a good product.

Don't know why you could not use the toyota factory pump, if it was sufficient to feed pressure wise the TBI, probally only need a regulator between pump and TBI?


Don't know on the VSS...I bought one from downey that went out of business...that adapts to transfer case. I would think that one of the VSS that mate with the speedo cable would work for TBI?

 

[xxfullsailxx]

Thanks for the prompt replies...

i really like the idea of keeping the OEM in tank pump (easiest of course). i called the toyota dealership service dept. and they said the pump pushes 35-40psi...the TBI requires 15psi. problems i've read about on this forum is that the excess pressure pushes unused fuel around the system and potentially heats the fuel up?

the only problem with using the inline fuel pump (Walbro et.al.) is how to pick up the fuel from the FJ62 tank. i've been told the toyota pump won't allow a free flow when disconnected... i was wondering if i couldn't use the FJ60 tank pick-up in place of my fuel pump?

but if "oldwineo" is using the toyota OEM pump without issues i may just try that...

 

[Kurtis]

Where is the vss normally on a 700r4? I did a 93 tbi and 4l60e and bought the aa adapter that has the vss built in to the adapter so it mimics the stock setup. The 4l60e has a ring on the output shaft and the sensor in the adapter just picks it up there. I'm not sure but I think the later 700r4s work the same way. Give AA a call and they will know for sure. If that the case and you have the other adapter you could just drill it yourself or if you told them you needed vss they may have just sent the adapter with it.

 

[lehiguy]

Your stock pump will be just fine. It runs your 3FE at something north of 40 psi. The TBI system operates at much lower pressures (10 to 13) and the fuel pressure regulator is in the throttle body assembly so don't even worry about that, the pressure and extra fuel will be dealt with automatically as long as you use your existing return line. The "in" line on the TB is the one on the driver's side, the "out" line is on the passenger side. It is best to keep the VSS, there are ways of doing that, there is a company called Jags That Run (JTR) that makes a pulse generator that will thread into the speedo drive on your T-case and provide a signal to the ECM. You can also do it in other ways, magnets on the output flange or even holes in the output flange next to the sensor, anything that will trigger the hall effects sensor. You just need to know if you have the two-pulse per revolution or the other which I think is twenty-four pulse. IIRC, a '92 donor rig should be two-pulse. Failing that, and this is what I did, you can have a new prom chip made for your computer and have the VSS turned off. I don't use the EGR either, that is also deactivated, my hardware won't even accept it. Once past the basics, take a look at www.tbichips.com I can't say enough good about that guy, superb support and knowledge. I'm around 350HP with a chip he made for me on my highly modified TBI setup. I get around 15 mpg with it. Good luck!

 

[brokenparts]

1. You could use a low pressure pump to draw the fuel to a surge tank then to the TBI pump. That way if you are ever at an extreme angle the pump wont run dry. Simple explanation:

510 – DIY Fuel Surge Tank » RatDat.com

2. vss... You can get an adapter from jags that run. It runs off the speedo:

V-8 Vehicle Speed Sensors (VSS), Speedometers, V8 Conversions, Stealth Conversions

3. Lokar makes a flexible dipstick for transmissions and engine blocks... they make nice kickdown brackets and cables too.

Lokar TC-1000U - Lokar Throttle Cables - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Lokar TD-3350400FM - Lokar Hi-Tech Flexible Braided Stainless Transmission Dipsticks - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Lokar ED-5002 - Lokar Flexible and Machined Engine Dipsticks - Overview - SummitRacing.com

 

[brokenparts]

oh yeah... if you pay for shipping I have an TBI pump that I'm not using anymore:

 

[torfab]

BrokenParts is right on the money, except the last conversion I did required a pressure regulator plumbed to the feed line, then the excess goes back to the return line and 15psi goes to the TBI.

Otherwise, ditto on jagsthatrun V-8 Vehicle Speed Sensors (VSS), Speedometers, V8 Conversions, Stealth Conversions

 

[brokenparts]

BrokenParts is right on the money, except the last conversion I did required a pressure regulator plumbed to the feed line, then the excess goes back to the return line and 15psi goes to the TBI.

Otherwise, ditto on jagsthatrun V-8 Vehicle Speed Sensors (VSS), Speedometers, V8 Conversions, Stealth Conversions

I've never seen the a regulator on the feed line... its usually on the return line or at the TBI unit itself. I'm not saying it couldnt be done that way... just never seen it done like that.

 

[brokenparts]

by the way if you can't get that it to run correctly with that cam or want to delete some of the sensors (TBIs usually run better with all sensors though) you can replace that ecm 7747 which I'm assuming you are running with this unit from dynamic efi. Its a really slick way to do some self tuning:

DynamicEFI

lots of info about tuning on thirdgen.org.

 

[torfab]

Here's the regulator

Aeromotive 13212 Aeromotive 2-Port Adjustable Bypass Fuel Pressure Regulator

It goes inline on the fuel feed line, then returns excess to the return line while feeding 15psi (or whatever you set it for) to the TBI

 

[brokenparts]

Here's the regulator

Aeromotive 13212 Aeromotive 2-Port Adjustable Bypass Fuel Pressure Regulator

It goes inline on the fuel feed line, then returns excess to the return line while feeding 15psi (or whatever you set it for) to the TBI

interesting... thanks for the link!

 

[xxfullsailxx]

Kurtis-i've read your thread at least a half dozen times. thanks for that.

-on the 4WD 700R4's the VSS was mechanical and located on the GM transfer case. My adapter does show a "sensor plug" which must be the same as what your referring to. i'll call AA today to get more info, otherwise i'll check with Jags that Run. I saw their article on VSS's but haven't read it completely yet.

-thanks for the fuel pump info...with lehi's second opinion i'm going to just run the toyota in-tank pump and let the re-circ happen with the stock system.

-i'm definitely checking out the Lokar stuff. i'm guessing that their oil pan tube & dipstick attaches on the outside of the ramhorn's as there is not much clearance between the block and the manifolds to run it through there? i was also calling around to the corvette shops to see if they had an option to go with the ramhorn's.

-anyone have experience with Lokar's 700r4 cable shifter? or the one with the mechanical linkage? they look pretty sweet. i'm just wondering if i can use the stock hole with the mechanical one. mathew from AA suggested trying to adapt the stock toyota shifter...

you guys rock!

 

[xxfullsailxx]

torfab- that is slick...and expensive!

my computer is an "odd" number according to "Painless." it's #16146299 which they said will work. at this point i'm keeping all sensors and EGR system...we'll see how it goes!

 

[ntsqd]

-on the 4WD 700R4's the VSS was mechanical and located on the GM transfer case. My adapter does show a "sensor plug" which must be the same as what your referring to. i'll call AA today to get more info, otherwise i'll check with Jags that Run. I saw their article on VSS's but haven't read it completely yet.

Sort of correct, though I'm not sure that it matters since you're using the OE transfer case. Most of the GM 4wd's have a mechanically driven VSS, but some of the later models with the NP241 have a tone ring and pick-up rather than the gear driven version.

The JTR pdf on VSS': http://www.jagsthatrun.com/V8-chapters/V8-tpi-Speed-Sensors.pdf
Their VSS page: V-8 Vehicle Speed Sensors (VSS), Speedometers, V8 Conversions, Stealth Conversions

-i'm definitely checking out the Lokar stuff. i'm guessing that their oil pan tube & dipstick attaches on the outside of the ramhorn's as there is not much clearance between the block and the manifolds to run it through there? i was also calling around to the corvette shops to see if they had an option to go with the ramhorn's.

My '92 TPI has the pass side dipstick tube outboard of the exhaust manifold and uses a tab bolted to the rear exhaust manifold bolt at the center ports to hold it in place.

-anyone have experience with Lokar's 700r4 cable shifter? or the one with the mechanical linkage? they look pretty sweet. i'm just wondering if i can use the stock hole with the mechanical one. mathew from AA suggested trying to adapt the stock toyota shifter...

you guys rock!

I've read of several guys using the 62's shifter with a V8 swap. About the only thing that I can see is that GM has a larger distance between Park and reverse than the distance between any of the other gears. AFAIK this is unique to GM so the 62 shifter spacing for Park might need a little 'adjusting'.

 

[lehiguy]

There seems to be some basic misconceptions about fuel pressure regulation. If you are using the GM TBI, you DO NOT need any other FPR, it has one built into the unit. The pressure at the injector is determined by the resistance that the regulator creates DOWNSTREAM from the injectors. Regulated pressure exists ONLY between the pump and the regulator. There is no way that an FPR upstream from the injectors can create pressure at the injector. Don't waste your money. The stock pump will have a comfortable and easy life moving the fuel around at about 1/3 the pressure it was designed for. And the Toyota gas tanks are extremely well baffled. Mine is an '85, it started life with a carb yet it has never even hiccuped with the FI and I have run it down to nothing but fumes with an external pump. Again, don't worry about it or waste cash on stuff you don't need. You are golden with the fuel supply and pressure regulation you already have.

 

[xxfullsailxx]

My '92 TPI has the pass side dipstick tube outboard of the exhaust manifold and uses a tab bolted to the rear exhaust manifold bolt at the center ports to hold it in place.

is that to say you used the ramhorn manifolds with the Lokar stainless dipstick set up?

or is that the GM OEM dipstick and tube set up with ________ manifolds?

 

[ntsqd]

I currently have ram's horns mocked up on the engine with the stock dipstick tube. There may even be pictures of that here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/336261-my-84-60-build-wallace.html

EDIT: nope, there aren't.

Eventually I'll build the dipstick assembly from Bundy tube and an old speedo cable. I prefer to have a positive seal at the dipstick and the way that has worked the best so far is to use a compression union at the top of the tube. Tighten both nuts to set the ferrules (one on the dipstick tube and the other on the dipstick itself), then loosen the one on the dipstick to finger tight. The dipstick on my Xcab Mini has been like this for several years and I've yet to witness any dirt on the dipstick, unlike with the OE arrangement.

 

[xxfullsailxx]

I ordered the VSS yesterday from Jags That Run. I also ordered the cooling fan, Lokar floor mount shifter, and a dipstick from them as well. I'm psyched! I have most everything else but some bits and pieces...

I'll probably start the tear down tomorrow and at least get the front end apart, the radiator out so it can be serviced and the exhaust apart and MAYBE the transmission and T/C? We'll see...

I will try to get some pictures going. Is it worth it to start a build thread or is this job old news at this point?

Oh yeah...anyone in CO want to buy a good running 3FE and A440F (260k miles and still going strong)!?