wont start (not starter contacts) (1 Viewer)

[RavenTai]

Edit/Update, I dug up an old thread, see post #35.



Cruiser has been sitting for a several weeks, needed to run the sunroof a lot so I decided to start it up, first time it started right up, ran it for about 20 min mostly at idle, revved it to about 2k near the end, never put it in gear

About 30 min later tried to start it again (key was on most of this time), starter cranks the motor just fine, motor acted like it was trying for a few seconds on the first crank after that it just motored on the starter, tried starting it several times over about an hour gave up when the starter started laboring from low juice (battery near dead)

No codes,
Checked fusable links good,
Checked critical fuses good,
Checked engine fluids all good

Have the battery on a charger and disconnected hopefully clearing the ECU will fix?

If not going to pull the plugs and check for spark, I could smell fuel from the exhaust, but maybe not enough, or maybe to much, can you flood a fuel injected motor? That is how it is acting,


any knowns that would cause this?

 

[Gumby]

Key was on for 30 min? on ON or on ACCY? If on ON, the coil was getting juice, but not able to discharge. That can kill it. Check for spark at the coil wire. If no spark, check for power at the coil with the key on ON. if you have power at the coil and no spark, you have a bad coil or a bad trigger. Igniter or pick up coil, on an 80, I believe.

 

[RavenTai]

Key was on for 30 min? on ON or on ACCY? If on ON, the coil was getting juice, but not able to discharge. That can kill it. Check for spark at the coil wire. If no spark, check for power at the coil with the key on ON. if you have power at the coil and no spark, you have a bad coil or a bad trigger. Igniter or pick up coil, on an 80, I believe.

yes "key on engine off", I needed to run the sunroof arround to adjust it after reinstalling, it only moves with ignition to the run position, I guess next time I will know better than to F-up my cruiser this way

goint to get some breakfast, gonna work on it when I get back, thanks for the lead Gumby

 

[cruiserdan]

Hindsight here, of course. I learned 30+ years ago in H.S. autoshop not to leave the ignition on without the engine actually running. Doing so will damage the secondary ignition system.

 

[landtank]

I learned 30+ years ago in H.S. autoshop not to leave the ignition on without the engine actually running. Doing so will damage the secondary ignition system.

Yup, the points

 

[cruiserdan]

The coil too, Sir Richard....

 

[Rich]

Yup, the points

I've been saving these for 25 years. Where do I install them on my '97 LC?

 

[Bob_Garrett]

I've been saving these for 25 years. Where do I install them on my '97 LC?

Uhmmm.... next to the carbeurator??

 

[cruiserdan]

Wow,

04191-41010 pointset for 75-77 vehicles with ignitors. My '77 Celica used those.....

 

[Rich]

In my case, 1975 FJ40. Gone, but not forgotten.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

I've been saving these for 25 years. Where do I install them on my '97 LC?

You could install them on my '76! Or you could send those relics to me to use for spares.

 

[Landpimp]

its also mentioned in the old f and 2f FSM's

Hindsight here, of course. I learned 30+ years ago in H.S. autoshop not to leave the ignition on without the engine actually running. Doing so will damage the secondary ignition system.

 

[RavenTai]

Did some trouble shooting today and I am still lost, pulled the coil wire off the distributor got good spark to ground, hooked my timing light up to #1 wire and it blinks so I have spark

Attacked fuel next, pulled the return line off the fuel pressure regulator turned key to on no fuel came out, cranked the engine still no fuel came out, pulled the regulator completely off leaving a hole in the fuel rail where the injectors live same result, so I have 0 fuel pressure,

Pulled the rear seats carpet and access plate to get access to the fuel pump connector did the checkout per the FSM, pump resistance is 6 ohms still within spec but at the top, hotwired pump to direct battery + and grounded to one of the nearby seat lugs in the floor fuel shoots out the return port if the now connected pressure regulator, so the pump is not only able to turn but also able to fill the manifold and overcome the regulator when hotwired,

Checked + wire to fuel pump (pin 3) key on 0v cranking get 10.2v sounds about right for battery voltage with the starter drawing from it, checked ground and get 20+ ohms from the fuel pump connector (pin 6) to neg post of the battery look in the ewd the fuel pumps ground point “BF” is under the console, thought I had my culprit and pulled front seats, entire front carpet (because it was dirty washed it with simple green and hose) console 4” “sub” and the cd changer (that thing is huge) . Pulled ground point bolt and now get 0 ohms between the BF terminal ring and pin6 instread of 20+, hook it back up and get close to 20 ohms again, pulled neg bat terminal and now get 0 ohms between pump terminal and “BF”ground bolt, I think current form soem other circuit into that ground point (there are 3 wires leadig to it) is throwing off the reading it is not the dome lights as they stay on when this ground is disconnected, not the alarm is it is now removed not sure what

Gave up for today and went kayaking on a local reservoir with some friends, had a nice time

I remember a similar thread about a month ago? Going to try to find it

 

[RavenTai]

BTW, I was told some time in the past (not sure when or where and never knew why) to not leave key "ON" and tried to do so this day be forgot several times wile adjusting the sunroof and it wound up being on for some time,

On newer cars you are often instructed to turn the “key on engine off” for troubleshooting for instance when pulling codes, does this rule still apply to modern auto's or is this like "do not leave a battery on concrete" witch is a hold over rule from the ancient batteries that were tar lined wooden boxes,

 

[landtank]

Don't get to lost with your meter. Just because you have voltage at the pump doesn't meant you have the current (amps) to run it. The voltage should be checked while everything is hooked up and trying to start the vehicle. If you have 12v when the pump is unplugged but 0v when it is plugged in then the issue is with a connection.

 

[Gumby]

It's OK to leave the key on engine off for relatively short periods of time, like when you are checking codes. You need to do it for a number of tests, but you want to be aware that it's not good for the coil and not leave it on for a long time. It does still apply to modern cars. I fried two coils in my 40, (89 TBI engine) because the kids left the key on after pushing it.
I don't have my FSM with me. I'm wondering about your cranking signal to the ECM. Does the 1FZE use a crankshaft position sensor? If the ECM does not know the enigne is cranking, it won't start the fuel pump.

 

[Gumby]

SOme more info. I got this from Alldata, but they get most of thier info from the FSM, so you might have it.

"In the diagram above, when the engine is cranked, current flows from terminal ST of the ignition switch to terminal STA of ECM (STA signal).
When the STA signal and NE signal are input to the ECM, Tr1 is turned ON, current flows to coil of the circuit opening relay, the relay switches on, power is supplied to the fuel pump and the fuel pump operates. While the NE signal is generated (engine running), the ECM keeps Tr1 ON (circuit opening relay ON) and the fuel pump also keeps operating.
The fuel pump speed is controlled at two levels (high speed or low speed) by the condition of the engine (starting, light load, heavy load). When the engine starts (STA ON), Tr2 in the ECM is OFF, so battery voltage is applied directly to the fuel pump. Fuel pump operates at high speed.
After the engine starts, during idling or light loads, since Tr2 goes ON, power is supplied to the fuel pump via the fuel pump resistor.
Fuel pump operates at low speed."

 

[Junk]

Neutral safety switch maybe or the 7.5 amp IGN fuse? Not sure of either, but thought I'd toss them out there just the same.

FWIW, I have a good but used neutral safety switch if you need to try it to see if that helps. I could always 2nd day it to you or something.

 

[RavenTai]

Junk, the ignition fuse is good, I don’t think my starter would turn if neutral safety was bad, Thank You for the generous offer though


Gumby thanks for that, that info is in the manuals but not all in one place like that

landtank, not sure how to check voltage with the fuel pump connected without piercing the wire insulation with a pin, never liked that practice lets moisture and O2 in, but you are right a poor connection somewhere could pass enough current to tell my meter there is voltage but not enough for the fuel pump, that does give me my next direction to work in, going to check all the relays, always go for the low hanging fruit first right?

 

[ppc]

KISS, keep it simple. Measuring resistance in this type of circuit is not the correct approach. You found the fuel pump is working by direct connecting it, now step back and measure voltage at all the connectors, fuses and relays with a known good ground point. My guess is would be the circuit opening or EFI relay, the 15A EFI fuse or one of the fuseable links to the battery. Generally a ground or connection will not go bad under the conditions you have described. The less you mess with the better as it sounds like your tearing into things that may cause additional problems.