Won't start - no spark after rebuild

[jcarter]

I'm frozen, but loosened banjo bolt at fuel filter, shorted B+ and FP, FUEL SPEWED. That cancels out fuel pump. Tightened up bolt, reshorted B+ & FP, no leaks.

Loosed banjo bolt at CSI, shorted B+ & FP, NO SPEW!

I'm going to read on to see what may be wrong. Other parts are harder to get into.

 

[Pin_Head]

Normally in a won't start situation, a mechanic would first check for a spark by pulling the coil center wire at the distributor, holding it 1/4 inch from the engine block and having someone crank the engine. If it sparks, the ignition is good. If not, something is wrong in the ignition.

If the spark is good, the next step would be to check fuel delivery. You pull the air cleaner or the air hose on the throttle body and pour or squirt a tablespoon of fuel into the throttle body. Then try to start it. If it fires, there is a problem with fuel delivery. If no firing or if it pops back through the carb or exhaust, then there is a timing problem.

You could do these tests in 5 minutes and narrow it down to ignition, fuel delivery or timing. If it takes you longer, you would get fired.

You did say in the title that it wouldn't spark and I took you at your word. To diagnose whether the failure to spark is due to the coil and wiring upstream to the battery, you would disconnect the wires at the minus side and temporarily ground the - side and see if you can get a spark to jump 1/4 inch at the coil high tension wire. If not, the problem is upstream from the ignitor. If it sparks, the problem is downstream from the coil to the ignitor, ECU and ground. If it didn't spark when you manually grounded it, it would suggest that the coil isn't getting enough power because the coil rarely fails. You can test for bad wiring connections upstream by putting your volt meter + probe on the + side of the coil and measuring the voltage while cranking. It should not drop below 8V.

 

[jcarter]

I followed the fuel line from fuel filter, runs behind the head. I felt back there and it gooks to the fuel rail at a goofy looking round thing called the "fuel pulsation damper" (FPD). That's what's next after the fuel filter in the FSM.

When I felt around the end of the rail was wet. I looked underneath it and it's wet too.

IIRC the end of the fuel line is a loop where the FPD was the banjo bolt that hooks up fuel to the rail. I'm guessing I didn't properly tighten that bolt.

Seems like a PITA to get to. Looks like I got to take off the Air Intake Chamber to get to it.

Obvious question (I think I know the answer). . . IS THIS IT? #2 Is there an easier way to get to it?

Friday night I had a buddy over to look at the ignition system. He said, "you're getting gas, I can smell it". Now, I think I know where the gas smell was coming from.

 

[jcarter]

3-weeks later. . . . . . FINALLY GOT BOOM BOOM!

Pinhead, Why didn't you tell me this earlier? I had no idea you could put gas in the air intake.

What I mean is . . . THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

I'm a very happy man!

Loosened the air plenum at the throttle body, pulled off the air filter cover to get some slack, poured about 1/2 a baby food jar of gas down the air plenum, slid it back on, no start. Battery was hurting from cold and previous attempts, so put charger on it, went ahead and put everything back (hose clamped plenum, air filter top back on with all hoses plugged in, took a deep breath & said a little prayer, tried it and BOOM, BOOM, BOOM!

FUEL DELIVERY IT IS!

Bad thing is I got to tear into it pretty deep to get at the fuel pressure damper. But I'm not complaining! I know what to do!

Pinhead for PRESIDENT!

 

[Pin_Head]

Pinhead, Why didn't you tell me this earlier? I had no idea you could put gas in the air intake.

What!

I was trying to help, but you were giving us bad information and having too much fun playing with your meter. Old mechanics know lots of tricks because you wouldn't last on the job if you couldn't fix it quickly.

 

[jcarter]

I know and you did help and I'm grateful.

Since I had the distributor off and my methods of checking for spark really suck, I thought it had to be ignition. I am well versed in the ignition system now.

The AFM was definitely bad, so that wasted a week or so.

I smelt gas, so thought I was getting gas, which I am, ALL OVER THE BACK OF MY FUEL RAIL.

Look on the bright side, although I frustrated the hell out of you and the other MUDDERS, I didn't buy anything I didn't need.

 

[SiRaDuDe]

Be glad that the truck didn't startup after your engine work...

If it had, that fuel leak could had caused a major engine fire!

There's a reason it wouldn't run, some one was looking over you!

 

[jcarter]

Good point Siradude! There isn't a lot of gas, if there was, I would have seen a drip and known. But very lucky. By the way, when I did finally turn it over for the first time, I had a buddy standing there with fire extinguisher in hand, GOOD fire extinguisher freshly charged, pin out, ready to go!

Pinhead cracks me up! I really like Pinhead's comments. They are on the edge of being rude. IIRC, "take it to a mechanic" "you'd be fired" "playing with your meter" I sure hope you enjoyed posting these, for I enjoyed reading them. Jonheld's was good too "train wreck in slow motion".

A few times I was about to say the hell with it and get it towed in. But, I'd still have no understanding of how it all works. Now, I'm nearly a genius at this stuff. Hey Pinhead, are you hiring?

 

[Pin_Head]

Pinhead's comments. They are on the edge of being rude. IIRC, "take it to a mechanic"

It was my honest opinion. After all you had been through, things weren't going well and you seemed frustrated and maybe in over your head. Having an experienced mechanic fix it and help start it is not a bad idea, because they know about things that can go bad when starting an engine for the first time, like lack of oil pressure or fuel leaks. I'm sorry that it seemed rude, but there isn't any way to sugar coat it.

It has been a long time since I have turned a wrench for a living. It is a hard and demanding job and I found an easier way to make money. It is a job for young men.

 

[Offroads4x4]

By chance have you looked at your wire loom where it passes the EGR valve for broken or burnt wires? Very common problem to be brittle from the heat next to it. You had to of moved it in all your work you've done.
Just a thought.

 

[jcarter]

Wires

Yes. I checked them out. The wrap was off from age, but the wires looked okay. I wrapped them with heat shield.

Now that I have to take it back apart, I'll double check and wrap more of it. It's a PITA getting those wires back in & putting on the big metal air deal. Before & after pics:




Notice in the 2nd pic, far left, there's the Fuel Pressuer Damper I didn't tighten well. Is the ANYWAY to get on that without taking off the big metal air intake?

 

[jonheld]

I was able to replace my FPD with everything intact. It's a PITA to do, but it can be done. You need a crowsfoot wrench, maybe 21mm, I forget the size. There are 2 copper washers that must be in place. There is a bolt that holds the wiring harness at the rear of the head. You can remove that and it gives better access.

 

[Offroads4x4]

If any of your wires feel stiff or hard there's a chance it's bad inside the plastic wire covering. We can see you had a large amount of heat next to the wires that melted the wire loom away. It may of still worked until you moved it and the now heat brittle wires broke inside the protective covering.
Just a outsiders observation.

 

[jcarter]

Jon,
Thanks for the tip, especially the crows foot. I think that'll work. At lunch I looked at it closer. I can disconnect the harness at the firewall behind the head and get it out of my way, as well as a stay & another gas line. Someone hold the crows foot on from the DS while I get a ratchet in it. Shouldn't be much to tighten since it's just dripping.

Offroads4x4
Let's hope NOT. If wires are bad, let's hope they go after winter. Too cold to be messing with the harness now.

 

[jcarter]

I hope tonight's the night!

Not to get too far ahead of myself, after I tighten down the Fuel Pulsation Damper tonight, I hope to get it running.

My plan is to let it run and check for leaks while warming up.

Once warm (it'll be 45 degrees F tonight, so may take a bit), short the deals in the diagnostic and adjust timing & idle speed. Hope to finish tonight, maybe take off Thursday to finish.

As soon as I feel she's timed right and running pretty good, take it to a mechanic and have them fix the bad exhaust connection at the manifold, inspect it after I tell them what I did, and get State inspection (expired in August).

QUESTION: Is there a pressure test or any other test I should ask for? Yo, Pinhead, what do you think?

Once back from mechanic & legal plates on it (Thursday evening or Friday), do engine break-in:
1. Warm up
2. Get on highway and run easy up & down RPM wise through all gears for about 20 miles.
3. Get back home, let cool down just a bit, change oil while a little warm (again, 45 degrees outside).

OIL RECOMMENDATION? I've researched Dino from WalMart. Probably 5W30 since chilli out. Something about zinc.

4. Warm back up
5. Get back on highway and run a bit harder up & down RPM wise through all gears out to the country (about 50 miles).

Commentary: Friday night want to go to deer camp & drink with my brother before Saturday morning hunting. He hunts, I'm camp beeaatch making breakfast and such.

6. Run a little harder on the way home.
7. Let cool down, repeat a few times Saturday, and get on it pretty hard by end of the day. Change oil again at about 100 miles.
8. For the next 1000 miles try not to do too many quick trips or idling. Try to keep it up and down. Change oil a final time.
9. Figure she's done!

This is a spare vehicle, but I expect I'll drive her a bit more after all this work. The thing is EVERYTHING is close to my house, so I'll need to make time to run it further distances. I'll visit my folks & brother more.

 

[jonheld]

This doesn't sit quite right with me.\
If your FPD was loose enough to prevent fuel pressure from building in the fuel rail, there would be fuel POURING out onto the ground.

You're not getting fuel to the FPR, but you are getting fuel through the inline filter mounted on the passenger side frame rail. Is that correct??

Fuel from the filter enters the fuel rail at the FPD. Are both copper gaskets in place and in the correct position on the FPD?
Is it possible that there is a pinched line between the fuel filter and the FPD? IIRC that is a soft line.

 

[jcarter]

Thinking during a delay

First, to answer your questions:
Fuel to the FPD (fuel pulsation damper)? Yes fuel past filter. I'm not getting fuel PAST the FPD which I know from not having pressure in the fuel rail.
Copper washers? Yes. The engine gasket kit came with copper washers that I put in, properly?, I think so, go on each side of the eye or washer-eye-washer, right?
Pinched line? IIRC there is a soft line from filter to a soft/hard junction below #5 plug (hard to get to), then hard line to the FPD that runs behind the head and is bolted in place on the back of the head (nearly impossible to get to). So, when I took the head off, I disconnected it at the fuel filter & at the FPD. After head was off, it leaked at the fuel filter, so I put the fuel line back on just to get the end above the fuel tank so it wouldn't leak. When installing the head, I bolted this line in place, installed the head, then hooked it back up to the fuel filter.

You have a good point Jon. I got delayed the last couple of days ending with tooth extraction (in my mouth, not on the flywheel) under anesthetic yesterday. OUCH!

Fuel delivery:
I plan to take the FPD off to verify copper washers (crushers). While off, I'll put the fuel line in a cup and check fuel feeding the FPD to make sure I'm good to the FPD (no crimped line).

Obviously, I'll check for crushers on the FPD. When reinstalled.

Once FPD is installed, I'll crimp return line and check for preassure in the fuel rail by loosening banjo bolt feeding the CSI (cold start injector).

Guessing: Like I said, I smelt fuel on the plugs. Also, around the FPD was "damp" but not "wet". So, maybe the FPD is tight enough for some gas, but not enough to start (sounds impossible, but maybe). Regardless, I will trouble shoot the fuel delivery completely.

Could be anything! Since I had this all apart, at this point it could be ANYTHING! Fuel pressure regulator, injectors (fresh back from Witchhunter), etc. I didn't drop anything and didn't read about CSI, or FPD, or FPR being "know problems", so didn't replace them.

What I did? The only thing I did do possibly wrong was over-gasket. I had to make my own gaskets on the two spots in the picture. I may have screwed up the big throttle body gasket because I made it to fill the spot in the pic, but when I put it together it seemed like it should have been smaller and seemed to cover something up at the throttle body. I had it all covered with "indian head", so left it as is, but in hindsight, I should have taken it back off, cut it down and reinstalled.

 

[jonheld]

Why did you have to make your own gaskets?

Throttle body gasket 22271-61020
ISC valve gasket 22278-61010

 

[jcarter]

Cdan told me no longer available.

 

[jcarter]

REAL TIME

Working on it now.
Took the plastic cap off the FPD, phillips screw was off and sitting there. I tightened it and checked it. Not much gas coming out near the FPD, dripped out when loosened fuel rail banjo bolt going to the CSI (should spew, right?).

About to tear into it big time. Take off big metal air intake, leave gas stuff in, and start running down the fuel system from front to back.

1. take off fuel line feeding FPD and check fuel getting to it.
2. Install fuel line on FPD while off and see if fuel is getting past it.

Will be looking through the FSM to figure easiest way to get at it. Tried by can't get off FPD with tools I have.

Will be checking back in a few. . .

Joe