Won't start - no spark after rebuild

[jcarter]

Thanks for the feedback guys.
I've verified ALL ohm measurements and gap measurements and ALL are within spec. Since I don't have spark now, I'll check spark from coil again, but I'm pretty sure I'm getting spark to the distributor. Rotor & cap are new, I even tried putting in the old ones to make sure that wasn't it, didn't work.

I've done these things several times now. I'll bet I've installed the distributor 8 times already.

Next 2 steps:
1. DISTRIBUTOR NOT RIGHT: I'll turn 360 degrees and try reinstalling the distributor, if it doesn't go in right, I'll rotate 360 again and try. THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE ISSUE! It is the ONLY thing that is not right. All other measurements have been verified and are correct. Upstream (coil & ignitor) has NOT been removed, so most likely not the culprit.

2. Spark plug gap: I usually don't gap the plugs because they are pre-gapped, but I'll pull the plugs and verify gap. With plugs out, combustion chamber can air out to make sure she's not flooded.

Click: Something new did turn up yesterday. When I turn key to ON, I get a click in the engine area. I'll see if I can repeat this today. I don't remember this happening before.

 

[jcarter]

Test #1: No spark from coil.

 

[jcarter]

Real time testing

Disregard last post:

Put wire on neg of battery. checked voltage to make sure it was a good ground.

Test #1: Coil wire to ground: YES. Pulled coil wire off of distributor, held 1/4 inch away from ground wire, saw spark. (embarrassingly, my first test, last post, I tested wrong end, or pulled wire off coil and tested that end, ).

Test #2: #1 plug wire to ground: Yes, but very very week. I had to nearly put ground wire on top of plug wire to make a spark. I wonder if it's got enough voltage to jump across the plug?

Test #3: Check to see if spark comes across #1 plug: Coming soon. . .

 

[jcarter]

Rigged up spark plug test

Thought I'd show you this pic. Blue wire is aligator clipped on neg terminal of battery, then vise-gripped on hex bolt of spark plug, I'll have the wife turn it over and see if spark jumps across plug.

 

[jcarter]

Rain out - Distributor adjustment questions

Test #3: YES spark is getting to plug. Before you ask, plug type is per FSM (NGK BPR5EY 11). Also, tested voltage from + of battery to threads plug goes into, 12V, so head is properly grounded.

Test #4: Overadjust distributor: I am going to take the bolt off the distributor so I can adjust it past the slot or normal range of adjustment. I'm confident now that spark is hitting the combustion chamber. Obviously, not at the right time. Tried it, NOPE!

Rain out: Next step involves removing the distributor AGAIN. I can't get it done before the rain hits, so will need to stop now.

Advanced vs Retarded definition: I'm assuming some things here and need to make sure I'm thinking right. The crank turns clockwise (I think), FSM shows 2 little dots on flywheel for top dead center (TDC), just clockwise (to the right) from the 2 dots is a large dot which is the 7 degrees before TDC mark. The rotor also turns clockwise. Per FSM, when you have your timing light flashing with #1, hitting the timing window, you should be able to adjust the distributor to the big dot at 7 degrees before TDC. Finally big question, if you set it at 4 degrees before TDC (between the 2 dots & big dot; to the left of big dot; counterclockwise of big dot) you're timing is RETARDED, right? If you set it past the big dot (to the right of big dot; clockwise of the big dot) you're timing is ADVANCED, right?

Like I showed before, when I install the distributor per the FSM, the rotor points a bit to the left or counterclockwise of where it is supposed to. Also, when it is installed correctly, I assume it should look like the FSM AND the adjustment slot should be in the middle so you can adjust either way, right?

Does anybody know the total adjustment in degrees allowed by the factory slot?
Could I trim the slot for more adjustment such that I could adjust the distributor to where the rotor is pointing to the right location per the pic in the FSM?

 

[jcarter]

FUEL

Looking back through this, Jonheld said, "If you have spark, then you should be getting fuel as they are controlled by the same EFI circuit. If you crack loose the cold start injector pipe at the banjo fitting JUST A LITTLE BIT after cranking the motor, there should be fuel pressure. As in fuel should spray out. If you're not getting fuel there, then the fuel pump is not running. If you are getting fuel at the CSI, then we need to go deeper."

I found the Cold Start Injector, loosened the banjo bolt, dripped gas, but not under pressure. Left it lose and cranked it, no spewwing of gas.

Maybe I'm chasing spark when I should be chasing gas. The fuel filter is new. I can smell gas and plug smelled of gas.

What can I disconnect, turn it over, and watch fuel SPRAY ALL OVER THE PLACE?

During the project, I had all this fuel stuff off, so it's a likely culprit.

Injectors plugged in wrong?: When I connected the fuel injectors I was a bit worried. IIRC they plug in 2 at a time, there is NO marking to make sure you plug in the right ones, I posted about this, but after futher inspection seems the wires were LONG & SHORT, so simply plugged LONG wire into injector FURTHEST and, obviously, SHORT wire into injector CLOSEST. Maybe I'm smelling gas because they are spraying, but in the wrong cylinder, obviously, at the wrong time.

Is there anyway to check this?

I'm back to SOMETHING I DID. Much more suspect.

 

[SiRaDuDe]

This whole process whould not be this hard...
I can remove a DIST allign TDC and re-install dist in a few minutes...

If all parts are good (and thats a BIG if) EDITED: (Please verify your fuel delivery conserns first )

My next assumption (and I might be jumping the gun here) woud be the CAM install procedure would be the culprit.

Did you mark and re-installed the push-rods and the Lifters and replaced them in the same splace they came out of?

Have you adjusted your valve clearance correctly? Too much and you will have no compression therefore no combustion.

Was the Cam inserted on the correct allignment? (I dont have an FSM but there is usually a dot on the cam gear that is alligned with a dot on the cranK gear when installing the CAM) You can remove the gear cover and verify this allignment.


I'm sorry if I "Jumped the Gun", but I'm just assuming all Ign components are OK and functioning... then this should be the next inspection area, since this was also worked on... Edited: (But PLEASE verify your fuel delivery concerns FIRST!)

 

[SiRaDuDe]

You can turn on your fuel pump without using your ign key or turning on the vehicle by jumping the terminal +B and the FP on your Diagnostinc connector in the engine bay.

This should power up the Fuel Pump and pressurize the system. 37 - 46 psi

THere is a Port on the Fuel Rail to install a simple fuel Pressure guage, maybe you can borrow one for free from your nearest PepBoys/Autozone/etc... They have a lot of testing equipment the rent for no charge.

Your Fuel Pressure should also remain at arround 21 psi, for 5 minutes after shutting off pump, if not, Fuel pressure regulator should also be inspected.

 

[jcarter]

Fuel pump operation

On page FI-51 of FSM, short +B & FP of diagnostic, turn ignition ON, pull fuel return hose near #1 spark plug and check for pressure.

Nothing, I messed with the paper clip between +B & FP at the diagnostic, sparked when put it in, so know it's properly shorted.

Wow, I think it's fuel. More research needed (it's raining, so good day for it), then more tests (I'm already wet, so why not).

Next test, with ignition ON, test voltage from +B & FP at the diagnostic. 12V.

If no pressure, check following parts:
Fusible Links
EFI 15A fuse
IGN 7.5A fuse
EFI main relay
Fuel Pump
ECU
Wiring connections

What to throw out?
Fuel pump - I'm smelling gas, so must be working. right?
Fusible Links - already tested
EFI fuse - already tested

 

[jcarter]

Siradude, thanks for chiming in.

Cam: I didn't remove the cam or the crank. In the 3FE, the cam & crank are geared together (no timing chain or belt). Just looked at the FSM and cam gear is 2 times the size of the crank gear which makes sense, so the crank gear will rotate twice and the cam gear will rotate once.

Push Rods: I properly numbered each of the push rods. I brought them in with the head & valve rocker shaft assembly to the machine shop. They cleaned all this stuff up for me. But sadly, they DID NOT mark the push rods. I called them and they said it didn't matter. Regardless, I had unmarked rods, so put them in whereever. I did lay them all next to each other and they were exactly the same (length, ends, etc). I realize you want to put them in like before because it is best for the cam, but what else could I do?

Fuel pump noise: With B+ & FP shorted, should I be able to hear the fuel pump?

I'm going to read through the FI section of FSM a few times and diganose the fuel system. Look like I should be able to disconnect fuel line at fuel filter, short B+ & FP, and fuel should spew out. If not, got to go further. Sadly rain is pretty bad now and I've got to give up for today. I'll keep reading.

 

[jcarter]

"This whole process whould not be this hard...
I can remove a DIST allign TDC and re-install dist in a few minutes..."

Wow, you are fast! This would be 1/2 hour job for me. Unplug cap, remove cap, bump with starter until rotor is close to TDC, find timing window back by the starter, get underneath & put pipe wrench on crank bolt. Then comes the fun part - move crank from underneath, get up and check window, repeat a billion times till you can see the majical 2 dots.

 

[Offroads4x4]

To move the crank to TDC just put a socket on the crank bolt and turn the motor over manually. This will save allot of time for you.

 

[SiRaDuDe]

Siradude, thanks for chiming in.


Fuel pump noise: With B+ & FP shorted, should I be able to hear the fuel pump?

I'm going to read through the FI section of FSM a few times and diganose the fuel system. Look like I should be able to disconnect fuel line at fuel filter, short B+ & FP, and fuel should spew out. If not, got to go further. Sadly rain is pretty bad now and I've got to give up for today. I'll keep reading.

Looks like you are getting close...

If I'm not mistaking the reason to jump the +B and the FP is to force the pump to stay on, if you dont jump these, and put ignition to ON the pump will only stay on but only for a while if engine not started... I think thats the reason but cant be sure...

But Yes, while the +B and the FP are jumped you should have constant fuel pressure if not, then your problem might be FUEL delivery after all... You should atleast have a constant flow via the fuel filter...

 

[jonheld]

LOL. This entire thread is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

What the hell are you doing with external ground wires and rusty vise grips? Your entire engine block and every single bolt head is a ground point. Plug in a spark plug and touch the cathode of the plug (the curvy thing at the bottom) to ground, it's gonna spark. That's how it works.

If you're not getting spark to the plugs then the distributor rotor and/or cap are bad or the wire from the coil to the distributor is bad or the plug wire you're testing with is bad. Done. Finished. End of story. There are NO other possibilities.

The key must be ON and the EFI relay MUST BE CLOSED in order to fire the fuel pump by shorting the pins on the check connector.
The fuel pump is also fired by cranking the starter. If you're not getting pressure to the fuel rail, then either the pump is not firing or the check valve inside the pump is stuck closed. Even a mostly clogged fuel filter will allow pressure to build in the fuel rail during cranking.

ARE YOU GETTING SPARK TO THE PLUGS? YES OR NO.
DOES THE FUEL PUMP RUN? YES OR NO.
You should be able to hear it if you fold up the second row seats and put your ear to the floor. You should be able to feel and hear fuel running on the return line from the fuel pressure regulator.

 

[Pin_Head]

If you're not getting spark to the plugs then the distributor rotor and/or cap are bad or the wire from the coil to the distributor is bad or the plug wire you're testing with is bad. Done. Finished. End of story. There are NO other possibilities.

Not necessarily. The other possibility is that the coil isn't generating a high enough voltage to jump the spark plug gap with resistance of the plug wires. If there was a bad/high resistance connection in the ignition circuit, it would limit the power the coil sinks and the voltage it produces.

When the plug is in the engine and with a compressed air/fuel charge, the voltage necessary to make a spark increases with the amount of air/fuel mix.

That is why I always recommend seeing if it can jump a 1/4 inch gap, which takes a much higher voltage than necessary to jump the spark plug gap.

 

[jonheld]

What you're suggesting is shorted windings on the coil. However the resistance measurements say that the coil is within spec.
While it is possible that the igniter is not sending the correct amplitude pulse to the primary of the ignition coil, I have never heard of an igniter going bad in this way. That doesn't mean that it's not possible, just not a likely possibility.

 

[Pin_Head]

What you're suggesting is shorted windings on the coil. However the resistance measurements say that the coil is within spec.

No. I am suggesting a bad/corroded/high impedance connection between the battery and coil or between the - side of the coil and the ground.

It doesn't have to be much. A couple of ohms would be enough to drop the primary voltage below that needed to make a spark during cranking. I have seen this happen fairly often during the 5 years I made a living as a mechanic.

Measuring 12V at the coil when there is no complete circuit is not evidence that the wires are good because you would get 12V on an open circuit with any resistance in the line. There is a difference between voltage and power. That is why I suggested that he measure the voltage at the coil when the - side of the coil is grounded and you have a complete circuit. It shouldn't drop much. If it drops much below 8V during engine cranking, then it may not spark reliably.

 

[jcarter]

Train wreck is right!

Jonheld: "ARE YOU GETTING SPARK TO THE PLUGS? YES OR NO."
YES - When I did my plug test, it sparked. Well #1 sparked. Now I realize you're right, I could go out and pull each spark plug, put the cathode ANYWHERE and check for a spark. I'd go out and do it now, but it's dark and 40 degrees. I'm going to figure I'M GETTING SPARK.

Jonheld: "DOES THE FUEL PUMP RUN? YES OR NO."
STILL CHECKING.

Cold Start Injector: I followed your advice by jumping +B & FP on the diagnostic. Unscrewed the banjo bolt at the Cold Start Injector (CSI). Turned key to ON. Fuel did not spew out, didn't even drip.

Fuel Return Hose: Per the FSM I turned the ignition on, +B & FP still connected, disconnected the fuel return hose, NO PRESSURE.

+B & FP: After looking at the circuit, I checked the voltage between +B & FP, 12V. Looks like FP goes directly to the + on the fuel pump and - on the fuel pump goes directly to ground. So, if I jump these with ignition on, the fuel pump has got to pump, right?

Guessing my next step (Fuel Pump): Loosen the banjo bolt at the incoming line to the fuel filter, turn ignition on, jump +B & FP, look down to see if fuel is coming out. Looking at the wire diagram in the FSM and per my +B & FP above, THE FUEL PUMP HAS GOT TO PUMP, right? Do you know any reason why it wouldn't?

 

[jcarter]

Coil test per Pinhead

Voltage at coil during engine crank: Are you suggesting that I unplug the coil, put meter probes on + and - of "plug in part" that feeds the coil, set meter on voltage, crank it & see what voltage I get?

You may have something here. You also said something about "it's harder to get a spark when the fuel/air mixture is compressed". I may be getting spark with the plug OUT of the combustion chamber, but not when IN the combustion chamber.

I've had spark & no spark intermittently when testing with timing light. I'm confident my distributor is working now. But, could it be I'm not getting spark when the plug is in the chamber?

Forget all that, SHOULD I DO THE TEST AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS POST?

 

[SiRaDuDe]

If you are NOT getting fuel delivered, I would first concentrate on that... Since it's a found and existing problem.

Solve that, then proceed with other diagnostics if still not able to run.

No fuel, no go... no matter how much spark you got!