Why do people get rock sliders, but not skid plates?

[LCtwohundred]

Alright, I put in my order for Slee SliderSteps. $1365 with the light kit + $300 for shipping.

Kind of a painful amount to spend, but it sounds like I'll make that money back on the first big mistake.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

From ARB: SIDE RAILS & SIDE STEPS

SUMMIT SIDE PROTECTION
With an all new attachment system, larger steel tubing and anodized aluminum tread plate, the Summit Side Protection range encompasses the very best in design and vehicle protection.

Built for the next generation of four-wheel-drives, Summit Side Rails and Protection Steps defend your vehicle’s doors, side sills and quarter panels from expensive damage encountered off-road. Manufactured from high strength 60.3mm tubular steel; the attachment system connects the side rail to the bumper securely, while a tough nylon cover sleeve provides an integrated look.

For those that do not require the side rails, a standalone protection step can be fitted.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the link above, if you click thru the "slides" on that web page, then you see that ARB states that their side rails can take the weight of the vehicle??

ARB started using larger diameter tubing, but the wall thickness is the same old .090 wall. Basically it looks big and burley, but it structurally is pretty weak.

I’m a big ARB fan, but .090 wall is what comes Polaris side by sides (we make aftermarket armor for those also). And .090 bends pretty easily under those light machines.

There is a reason the 4 wheel drive off road industry makes sliders out of .120 wall thickness.

But for us with 3 ton machines, I... I just don’t get using materials that don’t hold up. I’ve pulled two sets of ARB rails off of 2016+ so far and replaced them with sliders.

The report I was told by the drivers was they didn’t handle much. I wasn’t there though, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Madtiger]

ARB started using larger diameter tubing, but the wall thickness is the same old .090 wall. Basically it looks big and burley, but it structurally is pretty weak.

I’m a big ARB fan, but .090 wall is what comes Polaris side by sides (we make aftermarket armor for those also). And .090 bends pretty easily under those light machines.

There is a reason the 4 wheel drive off road industry makes sliders out of .120 wall thickness.

But for us with 3 ton machines, I... I just don’t get using materials that don’t hold up. I’ve pulled two sets of ARB rails off of 2016+ so far and replaced them with sliders.

The report I was told by the drivers was they didn’t handle much. I wasn’t there though, so take this with a grain of salt.

0.09...is that inches or cm? I assume inches?

What is the tubing dimension of BudBuilt?

 

[Madtiger]

This topic is most interesting...did some more reading on it...blew my mind!!

The ARB Summit official dimensions:

• Manufactured from mandrel bent 60.3mm x 2.6mm.

That translates to 2.37 inches x 0.10 inches tubing.

According to this article: Steel Tubing - Myth Of The Tube

”Strength is derived from two dimensions for a tube of a given material: outer diameter and wall thickness. Thicker wall translates to greater resistance to denting or other impact damage. When it comes to bending, the strength comes from the distance of the O.D. from the center axis. A larger diameter tube with even very thin wall can be more rigid than a tiny O.D. with very thick wall.”

The actual weight of a steel tube does NOT always translate to strength. Nor is the thickness or diameter if taken in isolation. It is a combination of diameter and thickness that lends to the relative strength of a tube...given same materials, manufacturing etc..

So, a larger diameter tube with thinner walls MAY be stronger than a smaller diameter tube with thicker (& heavier) wall. Thicker wall helps with dent resistance. While bigger diameter helps with bending resistance.

So that may explain how ARB gets away with a lighter weight slider...by using a larger diameter tube but thinner wall...thus saving in weight...while still providing good tube rigidity.

Anyways, i bought the ARB for it’s relative light weight and R&D reputation. I don’t plan on any major rock bashing...just sight seeing.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

This topic is most interesting...did some more reading on it...blew my mind!!

The ARB official dimensions:

• Manufactured from mandrel bent 60.3mm x 2.6mm.

That translates to 2.37 inches x 0.10 inches tubing.

According to this article: Steel Tubing - Myth Of The Tube

”Strength is derived from two dimensions for a tube of a given material: outer diameter and wall thickness. Thicker wall translates to greater resistance to denting or other impact damage. When it comes to bending, the strength comes from the distance of the O.D. from the center axis. A larger diameter tube with even very thin wall can be more rigid than a tiny O.D. with very thick wall.”

The actual weight of a steel tube does NOT always translate to strength. Nor is the thickness or diameter if taken in isolation. It is a combination of diameter and thickness that lends to the relative strength of a tube...given same materials, manufacturing etc..

So, a larger diameter tube with thinner walls MAY be stronger than a smaller diameter tube with thicker (& heavier) wall. Thicker wall helps with dent resistance. While bigger diameter helps with bending resistance.

So that may explain how ARB gets away with a lighter weight slider...but using a larger diameter tube but thinner wall...thus saving in weight...while still providing good tube rigidity.

Anyways, i bought the ARB for it’s relative light weight and R&D reputation. I don’t plan on any major rock bashing...just sight seeing.

So yeah, that article proves my point. See there are three things to think about with sliders.

1) limit deflection
2) reduce the chance of bending
3) reduce denting

larger wall tubing can absolutely reduce bending. No doubt about that. But then we go back to denting. As that article says, wall thickness is wheee that is at. So when you hit a small rock with .09 or .10 as that translates to, you get a nice big mashed in dent.

ARB is wall thickness is between 3/32” and 7/64” thick. BB along with everyone else uses .120 (of HREW or DOM, we only use DOM) which is 1/8” thick. BB also used .188 DOM which is 3/16” thick.

So for dent resistance and not having really beat up looking sliders after some wheeling, ARB is going to suffer.

Then there is the bending. Yes, larger diameter helps, but it’s only half the equation. Look at how many legs you have that hold the outer part of your ARB Rails to the frame plates. Most companies have 3-4, BB had 6.

Now, here is where I kinda wanted to stay away from, but I guess it’s inevitable... look at the ARB setup to where it mounts to the frame.

ARB rails go up only half way. HALF WAY! The strength of a frame rail is at the corners and that’s it. So when you hit the bottom of a slider, and it puts force into the frame rail, the ARB is putting that force into the center of the frame rail, where it is not very strong. The strength of the right angle at the top of the frame rail is where you need to put you impact load.

The industry saw this in the FJ Cruiser where companies were trying to cheap out and started bending in frame rails on the center section.

So why ARB thought that was a good idea baffles me. But it’s like their rear bars, super weak and fine for sandy tracks of Australia, but not ready for US trails with our rocks.

So one of those failed ARB rails that came in gave the frame rail a tiny push in in the center. Not enough to warrant a fix, but frustrating all the same. And for what? To save 45-50 pounds?

Then when I have seen tow other companies sliders come in here, both that broke the plastic rocks panel cover because they deflected too much. It just frustrates the crap out of me. One of those sliders hasn't even gone off road. That was just driving down the road. That's how close they mounted the slider to the body.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you don't really do anything but run around Glamis sand dunes or drive around in death valley where you won't ever hit the ARB rails, then sure. But again, we have 6,000 pound trucks. They are heavy, and they need heavy things to handle it for the long haul. Especially when we are talking about spending over a grand on any option out there.

 

[Madtiger]

I am not close to my LC, but I THINK 2 of the 3 leg mount is top to bottom of frame. Just the front “leg” mount is halfway. Let me see if i can find some photos in my phone.

Do you have pics of what your saw in those two LC with ARB Summit??

EDIT: found them. I don’t have all 3 legs photographed but you get the picture.

 

[mark71]

I am not close to my LC, but I THINK 2 of the 3 leg mount is top to bottom of frame. Just the front “leg” mount is halfway. Let me see if i can find some photos in my phone.

Do you have pics of what your saw in those two LC with ARB Summit??

EDIT: found them. I don’t have all 3 legs photographed but you get the picture.

View attachment 2437301

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Well designed for steps, but hopeless as a slider (IMO).

 

[robmobile73]

Steel plate bolted to lower body vs. a Slider bolted to the frame: Does anyone have any experience on bolting steel plate to the body for protection. Such as say 3X3X .250" steel angle bolted to the bottom of the sill. Looking at my BJ73's exhaust routing it's hard to find a way to mount rock sliders to the frame without having steel protruding downard that would hang up on rocks and obstacles more easily. I could accept the fact that it's OK to heat up steel fuel lines with hot exhaust nearby if it's diesel, add some exhaust wrap and reroute the exhaust straight back, but I'm sure it will create other problems I'm not thinking about yet.

 

[slipkid13]

I ordered a set of SLEE sliders because I have seen the damage done without sliders on relatively mild trails. I like SLEE as they are local here in Colorado and have a great reputation.

 

[Trukk]

Regarding ARB v. BB. I guess it depends on budget and use case. Sometimes a .22 is fine, sometimes you need a .50 BMG.

 

[Trukk]

^ P.S. Just ordered some BB stainless skids

 

[Markuson]

^ P.S. Just ordered some BB stainless skids

Good move.

While you’re at it...might want to consider a set of these:

 

[Trukk]

Good move.

<<PICS SNIP'd>>

While you’re at it...might want to consider a set of these:

View attachment 2437597

Already have the BB stainless Shock Guards on the truck!

 

[VooDoo2]

Yep. This is what I’m referring to.

If anyone knows of a new version that is ready to handle the weight of the vehicle at any point along the piece, that would be something very different from what I’ve seen in person.

My impression is that the main thing that’s new on the ARB is simply the way the side rails attach to the new version front bumper. They note this on the AU site.... but they don’t point to anything else that is new or stronger as sliders.

Paging @VooDoo2 ?

ARB have steps not sliders. If you took them offroad they would bend (see Pic's). Most products out there are steps not sliders and when paired with scrub bars, are designed to BEND in a crash. Partly for airbag compliance and partly because they dont want them to be an external safety device that needs engineering and to comply with more rules than is needed

 

[Madtiger]

ARB have steps not sliders. If you took them offroad they would bend (see Pic's). Most products out there are steps not sliders and when paired with scrub bars, are designed to BEND in a crash. Partly for airbag compliance and partly because they dont want them to be an external safety device that needs engineering and to comply with more rules than is needed

View attachment 2451955

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Where is the bend in the pics from off-road damage?

 

[bloc]

I took it as showing the light gauge steel construction that would bend if used seriously off road

 

[Madtiger]

I took it as showing the light gauge steel construction that would bend if used seriously off road

Because of the relatively large diameter, “bending” should not be a problem...see my post #44. It may “dent” easier than thicker gauge steel tubing.

 

[bloc]

Because of the relatively large diameter, “bending” should not be a problem...see my post #44. It may “dent” easier than thicker gauge steel tubing.

We can’t see the cross section of the tube, but that bracket is approaching sheet metal thickness. Therefore the diameter of the tube isn’t nearly as relevant if what it is welded to will just deform anyway.

 

[Madtiger]

We can’t see the cross section of the tube, but that bracket is approaching sheet metal thickness. Therefore the diameter of the tube isn’t nearly as relevant if what it is welded to will just deform anyway.

If our sheet metal is as thick/strong as those brackets, then great! From installing it, it does not feel like car sheet metal...but i am a neophyte when it comes to these things.

 

[TeCKis300]

We can’t see the cross section of the tube, but that bracket is approaching sheet metal thickness. Therefore the diameter of the tube isn’t nearly as relevant if what it is welded to will just deform anyway.

It's funny how our perspectives of metal thickness is.

The OEM frame is rarely are over 3/16" gauge. With sheet metal like 1/8 in more places than not. Some places are folded over or stacked where additional strength may be needed. With advanced design and manufacturing, OEMs optimize weight with strength greatly increased from geometry used to its advantage. Versus flat square shapes that are commonly used in the aftermarket and material gauge used to increase strength. I do agree that material gauge is sometimes necessary for increased impact robustness in commonly hit areas.