Who cares about looks! Is there a diesel option??

[Sniperx]

...

Careful Dougal.....talking out of your realm a bit.

In Japan almost ALL the cars are turbo'd. Due to tax laws cars under 1.3L get a huge tax break (VS say a 5L at 900usd per year). To make up for it, they strap on a turbo and hope the lawn mower engine can keep up. I wish I had more numbers like economy and power, but I really hate the POSs and try not to look at them too hard.

Theres something else I believe is being forgotten in this thread. Batteries. The cost and energy used to produce them. The cost and energy to dispose of them....every ten years. The noxious chemicals used to make them, the noxious chemicals used inside them, the noxious chemicals left over when not disposed of properly. Not to mention the touch nature of electrics and electronics in general. As long as its legal to do so...I will drive a diesel.

But eh, what do I car, I live on my island and am happy with my new car. The rest of the world can go to hell...not much you, me or we can do to stop it.

BTW...global warming IS a farce. Its not global warming and its not a negative thing. Its merely the earth returning to a state before humans were living on it. Think about it. That C02 your car belches came from somewhere, oil right? That oil came from Dinos...who breathed it millions of years ago and died. We're just putting the world back to the paleozoic era. Granted, it may not be beneficial to us, however...not everything in the world is meant to be human friendly. If cars weren't coughing up the C02, volcanos and other ruptures would be. In reality, theres nothing the human race can ultimately do about "global warming". To do something permanent about it, would throw the worlds chemicals out of balance and worse things will happen.

 

[Dougal]

In Japan almost ALL the cars are turbo'd. Due to tax laws cars under 1.3L get a huge tax break (VS say a 5L at 900usd per year). To make up for it, they strap on a turbo and hope the lawn mower engine can keep up. I wish I had more numbers like economy and power, but I really hate the POSs and try not to look at them too hard.

No they're not.
Japanese turbo micro cars (kei) are a rarity and are nowhere near 1.3L. Try to find some if you think they're so common. Here's a link to help your search.
You'll find about half a dozen models in the entire japanese history of car making.
http://specs.amayama.com/

Your claim that "almost ALL" of the cars in japan are turbo is laughably wrong.
But your comments on batteries are accurate.

BTW...global warming IS a farce. Its not global warming and its not a negative thing. Its merely the earth returning to a state before humans were living on it. Think about it. That C02 your car belches came from somewhere, oil right? That oil came from Dinos...who breathed it millions of years ago and died. We're just putting the world back to the paleozoic era. Granted, it may not be beneficial to us, however...not everything in the world is meant to be human friendly. If cars weren't coughing up the C02, volcanos and other ruptures would be. In reality, theres nothing the human race can ultimately do about "global warming". To do something permanent about it, would throw the worlds chemicals out of balance and worse things will happen.

Look out everyone, we have an expert.

 

[Sniperx]

Hey Dindong....Theres a Keiyonn registered car right outside my work. I LIVE IN EFIN JAPAN. Half of this island is covered with yellow plates (economy box cars). Every company has between 2-3 different models in the mini car class.

I can't count how many turbo whistles I hear every day riding around town. Go to the junk yards here and most of the pulled engines have a turbo hanging off them. I've even seen a nifty little 3cyl diesel with a turbo that was pulled from a Suzuki I think.

Yeah know, Douchebag, you're so used to defending yourself and your viewpoints...you can't even see when someones agreeing with you. I guess its only practical after being told you are wrong so many times.

And I'm not wrong on the GW thing. YE who is preaching thermodynamics...how about the law of conservation of mass. That Co2 went somewhere. The atoms present on earth today are the same ones that composed the fish people that wiggled out of the oceans eons ago. Of course space dust, meteors, and alien poop have added to the mix...but at the same time we've launched some of our matter into space which won't return either.

Go back to your hugbox.

 

[Sniperx]

...

I did make a mistake on the engine size though...

The mini car class is limited at 660cc.

 

[Dougal]

Good to see you have changed form "almost all the cars in japan are turbo" to "almost half are Kei class, some are turbo".

And I'm not wrong on the GW thing. YE who is preaching thermodynamics...how about the law of conservation of mass. That Co2 went somewhere. The atoms present on earth today are the same ones that composed the fish people that wiggled out of the oceans eons ago. Of course space dust, meteors, and alien poop have added to the mix...but at the same time we've launched some of our matter into space which won't return either.

Go back to your hugbox.

Hugbox?

You've said the carbon buildup in the atmosphere is natural, building up to what it was when all the oil in the ground was once carbon in the atmosphere.

Couple of things wrong with that.

1. Without us that CO2 couldn't get out of the oil and coal and straight into the atmosphere at the rate it is.

2. You're assuming that that CO2 was atmospheric and not locked up up vegetation.

3. Dinosaurs (and other living things) do not breathe in CO2, store it and die. They breathe in oxygen and breathe out CO2. It is only plants which absorb CO2 and excrete oxygen.

 

[cruiser_guy]

I hope they do if the 4.5 TD is all they speculate. I also think they might specifically for the Tundra as there is a fairly large market for diesel pickups for HD towing. So they might just leverage that for different applications. Current hybrid technology makes no sense for big heavy vehicles, HD workloads like towing and for rugged terrian.

My whole point in the first place was that modern diesels are no longer the KISS that you have and love. They are more powerful, economical, offers much beter operating range, comply with new emissions regulations, but they are a hell of a lot more complex with a ton more technology compared to old diesels.

I agree, for Toyota to hope to compete in the full size pickup market a diesel engine option is essential. As for that engine carrying over into the LandCruiser line I'm not holding my breath.

I'm aware that new diesels are more complicated than mine which is one reason I've stayed with the mechanical injection computer free 3B. As long as I can continue to keep these going I probably will. After all the maintenance cost is still very low. I would like the option though to buy a diesel when the time eventually comes that I need to retire the 3B.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Huh?

The concept of a fat torque curve isn't a difficult one to understand. Yet you've missed it again.
Hint. Fat is not Flat.

Again I call BS. Show me a turbo petrol car that gets better economy than it's NA version?
The only turbo economy car in mainstream is the SMART. There is no NA version to compare it to.

Such a loss. I have formal education in this subject. It's easy to spot those that don't.

You've finally got it.
I told you many posts back that hydrogen is only as useful as a battery. You're finally comparing it to electricity (or was that a mistake)?

Now you just need to realise that neither electricity nor hydrogen is an energy source. Will you ever get that far?

From generation to use, an electric car will not be much more efficient than a petrol car, probably only on par with a diesel.
Thermal electricity generation can't easily break the 50% efficiency mark, transmission losses and battery efficiency reduce it further. Maybe 30-40% of the generated power will make the road.

Which surprisingly enough is right on par with a diesel cars efficiency.

Go back to school. Your statements in this thread is anythign but that of a scientist. One line retorts with no backing data or references is hardly scientific. Then you get pissy when you get called on making incorrect statements.

How much time have you spend in North America?

 

[Dougal]

Go back to school. Your statements in this thread is anythign but that of a scientist.

I know full well the futility of throwing chemical equations and thermodynamic theories at someone who thinks hydrogen is an energy source, that diesels are a poor alternative to petrol engines and doesn't understand the difference between a flat and a fat torque curve.

One line retorts with no backing data or references is hardly scientific. Then you get pissy when you get called on making incorrect statements.

How much time have you spend in North America?

One line retorts are far more amusing than paragraphs of waffle and links tring to compare a diesel toureg to a petrol landcruiser.

I have spent 3 months in the US. Hope to visit Canada in the future.
This thread isn't about my world travels. It's about diesel engines being the only sensible choice for the future.

 

[83bj60]

I would like the option though to buy a diesel when the time eventually comes that I need to retire the 3B.

Be happy, you probably won't have to do that, mine is still running strong at 600,000 km and since you say the body in yours is in great shape... You'll be set for many years to come and will probably be able to wait until diesels make a comeback. OTOH I couldn't living in the Salt Belt so I had no choice but join the RHD JDM bandwagon to get my diesel... Not that I would want to go back!

 

[83bj60]

Boy is this thread hot or what!!!

We now go back to our regularly scheduled program, i'll try to be more specific...

What are to the top and bottom end of the TQ curve for 80% of peak on the 4.5TD we are talking about? Or the TD you are referring too?

I'm referring to the 1HD-T which is already more than 15 years old and has a very wide torque curve, and I was comparing it to the old 2F 6 cylinder gas engine. So you are right to point out that it may not be very relevant to the new 4.5TD I know nothing about. What I meant was that 'newer' diesels behave much more like gas engines, especially when compared to the really old, venerable 3B engine in my old cruiser, which behaves more like a tractor.

My point is, the torque cruve of newer diesels allow for a very, very wide RPM range, as a matter of fact I had a V6 powered gas engined Volvo of about the same age as my HDJ81 that had pretty much the same smoothness and response the 1HD-T has.

Hydrogen just as electricity needs to be generated in some way shape or form as well. Oil based products need to be refined. Bio fuels, need to be grown and then refined. SO all of them take processing in one way or shape, but when used in a vehicle or other application they are the source of energy.

Agreed, but generating electricty from the sun or from running water pollutes much less than generating it from oil or coal, does not produces carbon dioxide and is renewable.

An ICE is pretty inefficient at generating kinetic energy form the base fuel. Powerplants are quite a bit more efficient, even with ditribution taken into account.

Agreed, an ICE is not very efficient as compared to a (ahem!) diesel powerplant and it still produces large amounts of CO2 and you have to factor in the cost and impact of batteries and the inefficiencies of the charging system and the electric motors themselve, which can gouge, along with the distribution system, up to half the energy that came out of the powerplant generator.

In terms of environmental impact electric motors are very interesting when the electricity is produced from running water such as where I live, but when produced from coal or oil you are simply displacing pollution from cities to the locations where the powerplants are (which is not a bad idea by itself if those locations are in sparsely populated areas as it will benefit the majority living in congested cities). Unless of course a method can be devised to absorb the CO2 into some substrate to prevent it from going back to the atmosphere...

The real thing is, as you rightly say, in finding alternatives to generate the electricity (which is much easier to do than most other forms of energy). Hoem soalr doesn't look very attractive today

I have not followed the price of solar panels, but it was believed in the 80s when I studied the energy question for the first time (have been an energy buff ever since) that by 2010 or so manufacturing costs would have dropped down enough to make it a viably economical alternative... How much does a solar panel cost per watt now?

but if energy prices keep going the way they are it will get far more attractive in the near future. A number of folks have installed home solar, that feeds to the grid durign the day, that ends up in them having a zero bill to the local utilities at the end of the year. It will be even better to get your daily commute miles the same way as well, thus reducing the overall fuel consumption in the area (which will help stabilize fuel prices for the times when you want to get out of town). Naysayers simply have no vision of the future in this regard, as plugin hybrids will the next phase before battery technology develops to the point where it can be battery driven only (and affordable). Anyhow I digress.

Again we are off in the weeds though

Yeah, but it is so interesting to explore!

 

[Sniperx]

For a guy who touts himself so highly...you have a serious lack of reading comprehension skills...

"""Good to see you have changed form "almost all the cars in japan are turbo" to "almost half are Kei class, some are turbo".

Go back to your hugbox.
Hugbox?

You've said the carbon buildup in the atmosphere is natural, building up to what it was when all the oil in the ground was once carbon in the atmosphere.

Couple of things wrong with that.

1. Without us that CO2 couldn't get out of the oil and coal and straight into the atmosphere at the rate it is.

2. You're assuming that that CO2 was atmospheric and not locked up up vegetation.

3. Dinosaurs (and other living things) do not breathe in CO2, store it and die. They breathe in oxygen and breathe out CO2. It is only plants which absorb CO2 and excrete oxygen."""

I never changed my wording on the Keiyonn cars. I said most cars in Japan are turbo'd and there is a HUGE amount of these economy cars in the market. The SMART series is actually very small time here. Don't put words in my mouthh...especially when you try to quote me. Hey look...a turbo car just drove by...hey look its a petrol....hey look it has a turbo. Face it bud, your wrong, just like you were wrong about your blanket statement on Pajeros dropping valves and blowing up. Make sure you actually know what you're talking about. If you don't know what you're talking about, make sure the other guy knows less than you.

1. Yes it will. Read the stats on volcanic eruptions and the effects on the earths atmosphere. Its natural terraforming. We're just speeding things up a bit.

2. Doesn't make any sense. I am saying molecules is molecules...they came from somewhere and they went somewhere. Rotten peat bogs or dead dinos, the C02 was either converted or trapped during the animals or plants life time. Burning the oil (or anything for that matter) produces Co2 and water.

3. True, however, those carbon molecules came from somewhere. Maybe...carbon based life? This is not co2 in gas form, but rather carbon which is converted to co2 by burning it in air. It is merely putting more carbon on the surface again.

Doucheal, why do you come here? So far, everything I have read from you is diarrhea of the mouth. You like to argue and you like to read what you wrote. You don't own an LC, you never contribute anything worthwhile, and its a headache to weed through your tripe when reading a thread. Your soccer mommy is calling, best warm up the disco and take the kiddie to practice, maybe there will be a puddle and you can slip it into 4 wheel for a bit.

Go back to your hugbox.

 

[bulldog-yota]

I know full well the futility of throwing chemical equations and thermodynamic theories at someone who thinks hydrogen is an energy source, that diesels are a poor alternative to petrol engines and doesn't understand the difference between a flat and a fat torque curve.



One line retorts are far more amusing than paragraphs of waffle and links tring to compare a diesel toureg to a petrol landcruiser.

I have spent 3 months in the US. Hope to visit Canada in the future.
This thread isn't about my world travels. It's about diesel engines being the only sensible choice for the future.

The amusing part is that the links I posted proved you are wrong and full of s*** with real data. You are a biased opinioned dumbass, so GFY

 

[Dougal]

The amusing part is that the links I posted proved you are wrong and full of **** with real data. You are a biased opinioned dumbass, so GFY

Going through your links from the top, they didn't prove what you wanted them to.

Your links proved:
Mercedes has a bluetech system.
The europeans have emissions controls
carfueldata.org.uk have a list of air pollutants
carfueldata.org.uk list many more diesel cars producing under 120g/km of CO2 than petrol cars but doesn't include the 90g/km
VW Lupo 3L
A Merc 3.2 diesel is 0.1 seconds slower to 60 than a 3.5 petrol.
A Toureg is not a landcruiser
Toyotas old engines don't meet Euro IV
California government doesn't like diesels.
Some diesels still have glowplugs
Europe has more diesels than you thought it did.
Canadians burn fuel to keep warm.


Then we've got the concepts you didn't get.

Diesels are the most efficient method of moving a vehicle. More efficient than a hybrid petrol/electric and much less taxing on the environment to produce.
There is no better alternative for a vehicle. Electric is only suitable for a tiny niche (that same niche that petrol/electric hybrids are currently occupying).

NOx is a naturally occuring part of the nitrogen cycle. Blocking vehicles which are 30-40% more efficient than the current fleet because they put out 1.7 g/km of NOx is something only the US does.
Unburnt HC emission is not something you get from a diesel.
Hydrogen is not an energy source.
Solar panels do not produce anywhere their peak power output for 10 hours a day even if they are constantly tracking the sun.
If your daily commute is small enough to be provided by 10m^2 of solar panels then you should be walking or riding a bike.

Below is a picture of a fat torque curve and a flat torque curve. Shown in blue is the resulting power curve.
As you can see the fat torque curve gives higher average power than a flat torque curve does.
Maybe you can guess which one is the diesel. But probably not.

Your original premise that modern diesels are terribly complicated and won't last isn't true at all.

 

[Sniperx]

I guess when you've run out of one liners and wikipedia....you just ignore people.

Go back to your hugbox.

 

[Dougal]

I guess when you've run out of one liners and wikipedia....you just ignore people.

Go back to your hugbox.

With the depth of knowledge you have shown on the subject. Ignorance fits perfectly well.

The compression ratio has little to do with a diesel engines economy over a gasser.

I don't quote wikipedia. But I do quote mitsubishi diesel owners I know, all of them have had problems. Heads, valves, fuel pumps etc. Some warranty, some not.
Probably the best one was an engine which overheated and warped the block soo much that all the liners fell out.

Most owners are quite happy to talk about the problems.
Check out this guy http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=192048&page=2

my mitsubishi diesel has a common problem of over heating, causing the cylinder head to warp, and crack on cooldown

 

[Sniperx]

And you do a GREAT job of MIS-quoting them.

NIce obscure choice there. He doesn't say if its a 2500 or 2800 or if its even older. He doesn't say if its a Jeep or a Pajero or a Delica. 2500s are prone to problems, no denying that. However, the conversation in which this stems...was relating to the Delica and the 2800...both of which are solid.

Doucheal....go back to your hugbox, the Disco-mommies are waiting.

 

[bulldog-yota]

And you do a GREAT job of MIS-quoting them.

NIce obscure choice there. He doesn't say if its a 2500 or 2800 or if its even older. He doesn't say if its a Jeep or a Pajero or a Delica. 2500s are prone to problems, no denying that. However, the conversation in which this stems...was relating to the Delica and the 2800...both of which are solid.

Doucheal....go back to your hugbox, the Disco-mommies are waiting.

Don't worry he is so used to spreading half truths and misinformation to suite his uninformed biased opinion.

 

[Sniperx]

Heres some great testimonies to your quality vehicle also...

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/land_rover.html

Note the poor families, mommies and daddies, and little girls driving these "quality" British made vehicles.

 

[Dougal]

Heres some great testimonies to your quality vehicle also...

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/land_rover.html

Note the poor families, mommies and daddies, and little girls driving these "quality" British made vehicles.

I thank you for your concerns about my safety. But rest assured that my vehicle will never sit in a dealership for repairs. I prefer to do it myself.

 

[Sniperx]

"I thank you for your concerns about my safety. But rest assured that my vehicle will never sit in a dealership for repairs. I prefer to do it myself."


^^^ THATS the BEST you could do?




Go back to your hugbox.