Who cares about looks! Is there a diesel option??

[ShottsUZJ100]

Shotts, now we all know how much the atmosphere is warming, you're just trying to start something now...

You believe that crap? Yes, we're in a warming trend....like the 30's. The globe temps rise and fall in and around a 25-20 year trends. Even NASA ate their words when they stated 2006 was the warmest year ever. Wasn't. It was in the 30's and they recanted.

 

[Pskhaat]

Shotts, you took my bait!

 

[83bj60]

No point in further discussion, you have brought no information of references

[...]

I guess it is just an internet thread anyway

Yes, and as far as I know we live in a Democracy just like you do, we vote with our opinions and each person's opinion be it based on published facts or not has exactly the same value. Just look at how YOUR government operates (Hmmm... I wonder why the Kyoto Protocol comes to mind): not exactly based on published facts! I'm not quite sure Bush could be called 'knowing all his facts' and 'presenting published facts' to argue his position on the war in Irak, for example. We all know about the hidden agenda stated in the '"New American Century". Of course, you did not hear that from your government.

So get over it and stop pestering people to 'publish all their facts' and go make your own search: there are some right there in other posts in this forum. As a matter of fact, we DID present facts. Dougal has previously published the efficiencey maps for diesel engines. I have published mine on diesel prevalence in Europe. Maybe that's the problem with the internet, too short of an attention span.

I am going to refrain from getting into accusations, although that would be exercising my right to free spech. It's just that there is too much unwarranted negative attitude regarding diesels. If you want to go broke just to keep inefficient gas engines going, go ahead. But don't take over a country to take control of its petroleum like you have been doing because you're wasting yours all away and be all surprised when those people you trample on fight back.

 

[83bj60]

You believe that crap? Yes, we're in a warming trend....like the 30's. The globe temps rise and fall in and around a 25-20 year trends. Even NASA ate their words when they stated 2006 was the warmest year ever. Wasn't. It was in the 30's and they recanted.

I dare you to say that in a public place in New Orleans!

 

[83bj60]

Oh, and you probably believe in global warming?

I don't have to believe it, I simply live it and checked the records of the past centuries... Where I live we've had the warmest winters since recorded history...

Like I said, you should get out more!

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

I dare you to say that in a public place in New Orleans!

Go ahead and believe the main media.

 

[Pskhaat]

New Orleans!

83bj60, I really don't want to get into the whole warming debate too much here (for one I anecdotally see it, but separate thread); curious as to what you mean by New Orleans and this? I'm sure there's some things I don't know about the whole rundown, but my current understanding is the effect of some dykes, not really as much the hurricane proper?

 

[Dougal]

lets look at the faster MB E350
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=14672
vs the slower 320Diesel
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=15583

Hmm.
Slower Diesel gets to 60mph in 6.6 seconds.
Faster Petrol gets to 60mph in 6.5 seconds and consumes a third more fuel while doing it.

How will you ever show your face at the traffic lights with a car 0.1 seconds slower than the bigger displacement petrol version?

 

[Dougal]

Diesel is a fuel technology with lots of potential, but there are many other options as well. I wouldn't be quick to write any of them off just yet.

Other options.
Like what?
Hybrid which attempts to mask appalling inefficiencies of a petrol engine with the weight of a large battery? The system that has zero benefits for open road cruising and a battery that self discharges?

Propane/LPG where you're simply using a cheaper fuel?

It often comes as a surprise to many US citizens to find people from other places don't agree with their opinions or their government.
There's a whole world out there, the US is just one small part. Yet it consumes more energy per capita than any other.

 

[uzj100]

Diesel for the USA please. We only have 300 million people. The rest of the world is about 6.3 billion. Diesel please. Hybrid is such a joke however once again the main stream media is all over it without the facts.

Anyone, diesel, bueller, diesel? Anyone? Yota are you listening?

 

[bulldog-yota]

Yes, and as far as I know we live in a Democracy just like you do, we vote with our opinions and each person's opinion be it based on published facts or not has exactly the same value. Just look at how YOUR government operates (Hmmm... I wonder why the Kyoto Protocol comes to mind): not exactly based on published facts! I'm not quite sure Bush could be called 'knowing all his facts' and 'presenting published facts' to argue his position on the war in Irak, for example. We all know about the hidden agenda stated in the '"New American Century". Of course, you did not hear that from your government.

So get over it and stop pestering people to 'publish all their facts' and go make your own search: there are some right there in other posts in this forum. As a matter of fact, we DID present facts. Dougal has previously published the efficiencey maps for diesel engines. I have published mine on diesel prevalence in Europe. Maybe that's the problem with the internet, too short of an attention span.

I am going to refrain from getting into accusations, although that would be exercising my right to free spech. It's just that there is too much unwarranted negative attitude regarding diesels. If you want to go broke just to keep inefficient gas engines going, go ahead. But don't take over a country to take control of its petroleum like you have been doing because you're wasting yours all away and be all surprised when those people you trample on fight back.

Not sure what Bush and US bashing has to dowith anything. Funny that the "smart" and "evolved" Canadians use the same amount of oil and energy per capita than the US. See link at bottom.

There is no unwarrented negative attitude towards diesels on my side. Just pointed out a number of points to consider.

What I find funny about your stance and opinions expressed si that the rest of the world is following the emissions regulations the US started. Even Europe is curbing on emission gasses the US is strict on, see upcoming Euro IV and V. Not bad for such a backwards country. ANother funny thign is that Canadians and Europeans are streaming into the US to live and work here, not sure why they would move to such a backwards country.

Anyway I think the thread is way off topic now.

Other options.
Like what?
Hybrid which attempts to mask appalling inefficiencies of a petrol engine with the weight of a large battery? The system that has zero benefits for open road cruising and a battery that self discharges?

Propane/LPG where you're simply using a cheaper fuel?

It often comes as a surprise to many US citizens to find people from other places don't agree with their opinions or their government.
There's a whole world out there, the US is just one small part. Yet it consumes more energy per capita than any other.

Still pissed that you didn't know modern diesels have glowplugs and I had to correct you?

Try electric cars for commute vehicles, or propane hybrids with charge facility as one example. Bio fuels as another.

From your explanation it is clear you have no clue about the benefits a hybrid type vehicle have. For one they don't need to have gas engines, secondly withthe help of an electric motor you enable a more efficient engine design with lower emissions at the cost of power (since the electric is used to only supplement when more power is needed). A lot more engineering that you lead on. If you don't know or understand a technology, it would be best to understand it first before knocking it. Just FYI there are some manufacturers lookign at diesel hybrids too, nto sure if the cost would be justifiable at this time.

Lastly you make a lot of assumptions about me and US citizens. Firstly I'm not a US citizen and from your statements it is very clear I probably have seen a lot more of the world than you have, only continent I have not been to is Antartica.

And the US might use more enrgy per capita, but they don't use the most oil per capita. Strangely enough if you go through the site our high and mighty Canadian friends are just as bad as the US.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con_tho_bar_dai_percap-thousand-barrels-daily-per-capita

There are much more to the puzzle than you believe there is.


Anyway back from the way off topic rathole.

What diesel engine should be used and what transmission choices?

 

[hedydd]

Diesel Shmeesel.......they suck.

Not accurate. Almost all modern ones are blown.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

to argue his position on the war in Irak

You need to learn how to spell before dogging on the US and President Bush.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Not accurate. Almost all modern ones are blown.

Blown has nothing to do with my opinion. They suck, but if you like them, go buy them.

 

[hedydd]

Not sure what Bush and US bashing has to dowith anything. Funny that the "smart" and "evolved" Canadians use the same amount of oil and energy per capita than the US. See link at bottom.

Could that have anything to do with the average temperature difference between Canada and the USA together with the prepondaerance of American cars there?

There is no unwarrented negative attitude towards diesels on my side. Just pointed out a number of points to consider.

What I find funny about your stance and opinions expressed si that the rest of the world is following the emissions regulations the US started. Even Europe is curbing on emission gasses the US is strict on, see upcoming Euro IV and V. Not bad for such a backwards country. ANother funny thign is that Canadians and Europeans are streaming into the US to live and work here, not sure why they would move to such a backwards country.

speaking from the UK point of view there are not that many that choose the USA to live but those that do probably do because of some work related reason combined with the fact that one UK Pound now buys over two US Dollars which makes their UK currency go a very long way indeed.
On the other hand, if you visited here you would know how very little your Dollar would currently buy.

Anyway I think the thread is way off topic now.



Still pissed that you didn't know modern diesels have glowplugs and I had to correct you?

Actually the reason they have glowplugs is not the traditional reason of actually starting the engine in cold weather. They would start with no bother way down to -12 or -15C without them. Modern engines have glowplugs to ensure engine refinement and low emmisions until the cylinders have warmed, about a minute or two. The engines start instantly but the glowplugs warm the cylinders for the first minute or so.

Try electric cars for commute vehicles, or propane hybrids with charge facility as one example. Bio fuels as another.

From your explanation it is clear you have no clue about the benefits a hybrid type vehicle have. For one they don't need to have gas engines, secondly withthe help of an electric motor you enable a more efficient engine design with lower emissions at the cost of power (since the electric is used to only supplement when more power is needed). A lot more engineering that you lead on. If you don't know or understand a technology, it would be best to understand it first before knocking it. Just FYI there are some manufacturers lookign at diesel hybrids too, nto sure if the cost would be justifiable at this time.

Of course there is no more cost in developing a diesel hybrid than a petrol one. It makes far more sense to have a diesel hybrid because the diesel is far more efficient than the average difference in efficiency when run in stop/start city environments. Frankly my opinion and the opinion of many clear thinkers is that the energy used in the production of hybrids, the energy used in moving the extra weight and the toxic chemicals used in batteries and the recycling issues they create make hybrid vehicles counter productive at the present level of technology, even if they used diesel engines.

Lastly you make a lot of assumptions about me and US citizens. Firstly I'm not a US citizen and from your statements it is very clear I probably have seen a lot more of the world than you have, only continent I have not been to is Antartica.

And the US might use more enrgy per capita, but they don't use the most oil per capita. Strangely enough if you go through the site our high and mighty Canadian friends are just as bad as the US.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con_tho_bar_dai_percap-thousand-barrels-daily-per-capita

There are much more to the puzzle than you believe there is.


Anyway back from the way off topic rathole.

What diesel engine should be used and what transmission choices?

Who uses more oil per head apart from the Japanese who actually use it to manufacture and export all their products but have to buy ALL their oil in to do so. I doubt if the Japanese use as much as America per head but I don't have the figures.

As far as diesel engines for Land Cruiser, then one with adequate power to tow and perform while being more economical than previous generations while meeting all US regulations. Wait a minute, aren't they about to launch such a vehicle? It will need ultra low sulphur diesel off course. Oh, wait a minute, the USA is finally getting ultra low sulphur diesel is it not?

 

[cruiser_guy]

Blown has nothing to do with my opinion. They suck, but if you like them, go buy them.

I have and I will continue to do so! Toyota USA can bring them in or if necessary I'll bring it in myself but I won't be drivng a gasser again!!

We were out wheeling two weeks ago with a turbo-diesel powered 100 series. It was easily as quiet as the gassers! I saw another one at the dealer the other day it was a TD 4.2!

As for glow plugs, not all modern diesels have them. My Dodge Cummins did not have glow plugs but it did have a glow screen, similar but not the same.

As for engine longevity, I have over 500,000kms on my 3B and it got a turbo at over 300,000kms!! It's still going strong. I'm sure it's over 10,000 hours by now.

 

[Dougal]

What I find funny about your stance and opinions expressed si that the rest of the world is following the emissions regulations the US started. Even Europe is curbing on emission gasses the US is strict on, see upcoming Euro IV and V.

The US instigated vehicle pollution controls first because they had the biggest problem.
But guess who's putting out standards that control CO2 emissions? It's not the US and due to their car industry lobbying it probably never will.

Still pissed that you didn't know modern diesels have glowplugs and I had to correct you?

You found one engine with glow plugs and think every engine has them?

Try electric cars for commute vehicles, or propane hybrids with charge facility as one example. Bio fuels as another.

Electric cars are only suitable for short, slow commutes in temperate climates. They also have the problem of shifting load to power stations which often don't have the spare capacity.
Propane based hybrids have the same terrible efficiency as petrol hybrids.
Biofuels in a petrol engine again have terrible efficiency.
Biofuel in a diesel engine is a viable solution. But first you've gotta have a diesel engine, which is my point exactly.

From your explanation it is clear you have no clue about the benefits a hybrid type vehicle have. For one they don't need to have gas engines, secondly withthe help of an electric motor you enable a more efficient engine design with lower emissions at the cost of power (since the electric is used to only supplement when more power is needed). A lot more engineering that you lead on.

I understand hybrids perfectly well. A petrol electric hybrid is a feel-good consumer item which has benefits only available in stop-start conditions. Not an environmental solution as a straight diesel car is far more efficient than any of the hybrids made so far.
To allow diesel-electric hybrids you must first allow diesel vehicles (see my biofuel comment earlier).

 

[bulldog-yota]

The US instigated vehicle pollution controls first because they had the biggest problem.
But guess who's putting out standards that control CO2 emissions? It's not the US and due to their car industry lobbying it probably never will.

Just wait for the new government, the Bush administration has undioen the CLinton administrations work andthen some. Doesn't mean it won't change in the near future though.

I'm pretty disappointed that selfproclaiming global citizens know so little about the US, which has one of the most diverse cultures (pending on state you go to). Don't believe all the TV shows you see.

You found one engine with glow plugs and think every engine has them?

No, just one of the most modern diesels. Pretty much the diesel technology that will be deployed in the future to meet first world emission standards. And one of the ones labelled to lead the diesel charge in North America.

Electric cars are only suitable for short, slow commutes in temperate climates. They also have the problem of shifting load to power stations which often don't have the spare capacity.
Propane based hybrids have the same terrible efficiency as petrol hybrids.
Biofuels in a petrol engine again have terrible efficiency.
Biofuel in a diesel engine is a viable solution. But first you've gotta have a diesel engine, which is my point exactly.

A large portion of electricity no longer comes from powerplants, and solar cells at home are becomign more viable every year in sunny climates. I know a few people who run electric cars for their commute needs that are charged from their home solar system. Offloading the oil supply.

I forgot hydrogen as well. Point is that for future needs the world will be dependant on multiple technologies to address the problem of energy and transportation. No one technology will address the needs, diesel is just one such technology and far from the be end all. Easier renewable sources of energy need to be expanded at a far geater rate, electricy is an easy one due to ease of distribution and generation from multiple sources. Battery technology is also progressing at a very good pace. Unfortuantely a very inappropriate technology for a vehicle like a cruiser (range comes to mind).

I understand hybrids perfectly well. A petrol electric hybrid is a feel-good consumer item which has benefits only available in stop-start conditions. Not an environmental solution as a straight diesel car is far more efficient than any of the hybrids made so far.
To allow diesel-electric hybrids you must first allow diesel vehicles (see my biofuel comment earlier).

You are quick to bag on hybrids, yet show me any vehicle that for the same size of vehicle can better the fuel consumption or emissions of a Prius for a combined cycle (which is more relevant than pure highway or city driving). It is aimed as a commuter vehicle specifc to high congestion areas, aka big cities.


So anyway back to topic. I have yet to see a Toyota diesel engine that will produce the power required to move heavy pig like the new LC and able to meet the upcoming first world emission regulations (Euro V, US TierII, etc). If so which engine is it? Details will be good.

AFAIK they will have to introduce a new engine, which means they will probably need to make it powerful enough for a fullsize pickup (the new Tundra) to be able to get enough volume to make it viable and affordable. The existing 4.2TD doesn't meet either given the specs listed for power or emissions. I would say at least 300+ HP and 500+ lb-ft would be required and the relevant emissions.

 

[Dougal]

A large portion of electricity no longer comes from powerplants, and solar cells at home are becomign more viable every year in sunny climates. I know a few people who run electric cars for their commute needs that are charged from their home solar system. Offloading the oil supply.

Oh BS.
All of the worlds power comes from power plants, power doesn't grow on trees. Unless of course you some some narrow focused idea of what constitutes a power plant.
Wind and hydro are both powerplants, the US has little of either.

Solar panels give you around 100watts per square meter.
If your ICE uses 2L of petrol (74MJ) in a commute at 30% efficiency, then even with a 60% efficient electric drivetrain you'll need 11MJ.
To get that in 4 hours you need 8m^2 of solar panels working at maximum efficiency with a perfect storage system.

I forgot hydrogen as well.

Hydrogen is not an energy source. It's just another type of battery. Completely useless.

You are quick to bag on hybrids, yet show me any vehicle that for the same size of vehicle can better the fuel consumption or emissions of a Prius for a combined cycle (which is more relevant than pure highway or city driving). It is aimed as a commuter vehicle specifc to high congestion areas, aka big cities.

VW Polo Diesel.

So anyway back to topic. I have yet to see a Toyota diesel engine that will produce the power required to move heavy pig like the new LC and able to meet the upcoming first world emission regulations (Euro V, US TierII, etc). If so which engine is it? Details will be good.

You haven't seen it because you live in a vacuum.

The engine is the 4.5L V8 Diesel which toyota has recently developed.

The existing 4.2TD doesn't meet either given the specs listed for power or emissions. I would say at least 300+ HP and 500+ lb-ft would be required and the relevant emissions.

You've clearly never driven a diesel. Your power requirements are way off. The old 1HD-FTE was plenty of engine, it provided only 140kw and 440Nm of torque.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Oh BS.
All of the worlds power comes from power plants, power doesn't grow on trees. Unless of course you some some narrow focused idea of what constitutes a power plant.
Wind and hydro are both powerplants, the US has little of either.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about. The US has plenty of both. Maybe check your facts before talking. Sure they can do with a lot more, since % of total productions is low. And wind energy and solar is defined as a farm not a powerplant.

And FYI the US electricty production from renewable sources (Hydro and other) was 10x the total electricity production of New Zealand.

Solar panels give you around 100watts per square meter.
If your ICE uses 2L of petrol (74MJ) in a commute at 30% efficiency, then even with a 60% efficient electric drivetrain you'll need 11MJ.
To get that in 4 hours you need 8m^2 of solar panels working at maximum efficiency with a perfect storage system.

Actually it is already more than 150W/m2 .

Hydrogen is not an energy source. It's just another type of battery. Completely useless.

Again baseless and factless.

VW Polo Diesel.

I said same size, not half the size. Amazing how selective you are in picking information to try and prove your baseless statements. The useless hybrid clobbers an efficient diesel Jetta on both emissions and fuel consumption, for a vehicle with more interior room.

You haven't seen it because you live in a vacuum.

The engine is the 4.5L V8 Diesel which toyota has recently developed.



You've clearly never driven a diesel. Your power requirements are way off. The old 1HD-FTE was plenty of engine, it provided only 140kw and 440Nm of torque.

I have driven plenty of diesels, my last stint was an Audi A6 2.7 TDI in France. Just because it is diesel doesn't mean it's perforrmance with the same power rating is magically more.

What are the specs of the 4.5TD, hopefully much better than the LC70 4.5TD.