Which brand of aftermarket UCA?

[dnp]

I really don't understand setting the whole vehicle up to run really wide tires. They're not the best in all situations. In fact they're a detriment in most conditions in my experience. I run 255/85 KM2s which gives me ample clearance with an OME med. lift and chains if I need them. Without spacers.

Really wide tires gain you very little in all but sand flotation scenarios. Where skinny tires are a drawback is on side-hill muddy/rock climbing situations where you want a larger lateral patch. In most cases I find a longer longitudinal contact patch is far superior, in mud/snow/rock and anywhere that going up (or down) in a controlled fashion is a priority. And you don't need to worry about a lot of the clearance issues.

My driving is made up of 95% on-road and 5% off-road, so the technical aspect of them isn't as important to me as it is to many on MUD. My UCA ball joints need to be replaced, and I'm trying to determine what setup will be best for my needs. I can replace my UCA's with OEM-style uppers, replace the lower ball joints, AND install spacers (not desirable, but may be necessary) for less than I can buy aftermarket UCA's alone. That being said, if I can determine a REASON to use the aftermarkets, I'm willing to do so.....thus, the original reason for this thread.

If you're trying to run 325s because you think they look cool or you believe they'll be best for traction in most conditions, I suggest you do a little more research.

I can chain up my 255s in the mud and pull you out though.

The first photo is a little over the top (not to mention expensive), but is nearly what I'd like to have. The second photo is of 325s, and since this is a Slee photo, I have to assume it's been tested as a viable option. The third photo.......well, you'd never have to worry about me driving a truck with a tire that thin......just not for me

 

[dnp]

^ agree. And then factor the steering scrub effect that results from running 1.25"+ wide wheel spacer adapters required with 325 width tires and you've got even more negative off-road/tight turn trail performance characteristics for a Land Cruiser.

wngrog ran 325/60-18s with a 1" wheel spacer with no problems https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-cruisers/100084-100-spring-2.html

You commented several times in that thread. Has new information come to light that makes you feel differently about it now?

 

[spressomon]

^ sorry about that...I thought 325 wide tires needed 1.25"+ spacer adapters. However it will depend on tire and model...Toyo MT, for instance, might be doubtful at 1" FWIW.

Recovery chains, which might not be applicable to you, would need additional tire to knuckle clearance.

For the record: I liked the highway feel and handling that resulted with my 1" wheel spacer adapters; I think 10mm rear spacer + 1" front wheel spacer adapter would be ideal for non-techinical trails. This, at approximately 2" or so front lift height, gets the front/rear track back to non-lift.

However on tight switch back type trails the steering scrub was bothersome...along with the wider turning radius.

 

[AimCOtaco]

Total Chaos UCA install observations.

Last week I installed a set of TC UCA's. I already have a set I've been running for years on my Tacoma and the improvement to handling accuracy alone is worth the expense to me. My LC had both upper bj boots torn when I bought it and they were a tad loose after 195,000 mi so Urethane/Uniball arms were a no brainier for me.

BUT, One thing I notice about the basic design approach is bothering me a bit and that is how the wear of the urethane bushing face will be affected by the slotted mounting hole in the frame mount. TC's instructions say to dry install the bushings to the arms and then grease the ID and the steel insert with appropriate grease. This leads me to believe that the slip surfaces will be the bushing to insert interface and the bushing to frame mount interface. Basically the face of the bushing will be rotating against the slotted frame mount and I think that could be bad.

Another user, MXNDRINKS had a problem like this due to the angles or tension of the inboard mounting bolts which caused damage to the inboard bushings. Mxn, was this due to the tension in the mounts or the angularity?
Any pictures anywhere or post you could direct me to?

Now I'm wondering if this will happen regardless due to the design of the inboard urethane bushing and hardware.

In the case of the Tacoma/4-runner UCA, the upper arm is not adjustable. Only the lower control arm is adjusted and therefore the upper frame mounts have just a hole, not a slot. On the 100 this is reversed so the lower pivots are fixed and the uppers are adjusted and for this reason the upper is slotted. It seems to me that this design that works great for the other platform may need to be re-engineered slightly for the 100. For example, perhaps a heavy washer should exist between the Urethane and the frame mount to protect the urethane against extreme misalignment or damage from the slot (this washer would need to be keyed to the steel insert so as to not rotate against the frame mount.

The stock design does not bear against the frame mounts because it is a cast rubber bushing and there is no slip, only shear deflection in the rubber.

Anybody know if JT's use the same approach as TC?

It's going to be interesting to see how these wear compared to the set on my Tacoma.

Any other thoughts or experiences? MUD? Mxndrinks?

 

[Mxndrnks]

I'm at work and on my phone. Ill see if I have any pics when I get home and will write a more detailed response.

 

[Mxndrnks]

Sorry for taking so long to get back. It has been a long week already.....

Ill try and respond in line as best I can below.

[snip]One thing I notice about the basic design approach is bothering me a bit and that is how the wear of the urethane bushing face will be affected by the slotted mounting hole in the frame mount. TC's instructions say to dry install the bushings to the arms and then grease the ID and the steel insert with appropriate grease. This leads me to believe that the slip surfaces will be the bushing to insert interface and the bushing to frame mount interface. Basically the face of the bushing will be rotating against the slotted frame mount and I think that could be bad.

Another user, MXNDRINKS had a problem like this due to the angles or tension of the inboard mounting bolts which caused damage to the inboard bushings. Mxn, was this due to the tension in the mounts or the angularity?
Any pictures anywhere or post you could direct me to?

I looked through my pictures and I dont have any pictures to provide. What happened with me is my local Firestone couldnt align my truck if their life depended on it. The first time they aligned it my passenger wheel would rub on the UCA at full lock. When I had them do it again, you could visibly see that the UCA was tweaked towards the rear of the car and during suspension cycle, the arm would rub on the opening for the inner UCA mount. I think I had them try one more time with not much better success. So, I went through Total Chaos to find a local shop they recommended to do the alignment for me. They are the only shop I have do work on my rig now. Even though, I think I was the first 100 they had done the TC UCA's on, so we decided to set it up similar to the numbers they do on the Tundras. Everything was good from there on.

After about 9 months, I was trying to lubricate the inner bushings, and couldnt get grease into one of the zirks on the inner bushing. Then the Zirk broke off. So I pulled it (this was the passenger side that Firestone could get right) and the bushing face was all torn up. So, after 9 months of use I found myself having to rebuild my UCA's. I was not happy about it. When I pulled my drivers side it was fine. But, seeing I was rebuilding one... I just did both and a bearing repack, and replaced my lower ball joints at the same time. So, I think they can work with a proper alignment and proper maintenance.I do think there is a lot of room for improvement here though. I have not had any issues in 1-1.5 years now.....

Now I'm wondering if this will happen regardless due to the design of the inboard urethane bushing and hardware.

In the case of the Tacoma/4-runner UCA, the upper arm is not adjustable. Only the lower control arm is adjusted and therefore the upper frame mounts have just a hole, not a slot. On the 100 this is reversed so the lower pivots are fixed and the uppers are adjusted and for this reason the upper is slotted. It seems to me that this design that works great for the other platform may need to be re-engineered slightly for the 100. For example, perhaps a heavy washer should exist between the Urethane and the frame mount to protect the urethane against extreme misalignment or damage from the slot (this washer would need to be keyed to the steel insert so as to not rotate against the frame mount.

The stock design does not bear against the frame mounts because it is a cast rubber bushing and there is no slip, only shear deflection in the rubber.

Anybody know if JT's use the same approach as TC?

It's going to be interesting to see how these wear compared to the set on my Tacoma.

Any other thoughts or experiences? MUD? Mxndrinks?

Like I said above, I think there is a lot of room for improvement. The washer idea is a great start, But, I think the whole inner joint needs a long hard look at. I havent had many problems with squeaky UCA's... but for the last year I have been regulated to street driving only (soon to change). I know others that have complained about having to grease them multiple times on a trip. Once I get back out there, if I start having issues again, they will be pulled and I will go back to OEM unless some one comes up with a better solution that has less maintenance.

Hope this helps!

 

[bluecruiser]

I run the TC's too and had issues with alignment. There's more variables for the alignment tech with these compared to OEM. I have been out with multiple 100's on multi day trips that have aftermarket uppers and they all squeak in high dust areas. It actually starts to get pretty ridiculous. I use the recommended super lube and the bushings still sound like crap. I would love to see an alternative with real rubber bushings and either sealed uniballs or upper joints that are serviceable and have a better range of button than OEM. Multiple people I know would not recommend the current offerings after owning them themselves...I'm going keep them because they are paid for, but that's about the only reason why.

 

[OregonLC]

Regarding the noise, maybe things have changed since 2010, but according to Carl the trick is in the lube:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=5995535&postcount=31

Regarding the bushing being torn up by the slot, isn't there a spindle that takes the compressive force (after they seat that is)? Seems like the design is for the ends to be fixed and the pivot to be in the center of the joint. If they're noisy, they're probably not lubed and I could see this then making them want to pivot at the ends.

As far as TC vs JT, I'm having a hard time seeing the mounting difference between the brands, although the TC look like they have a nice angled zerk to make for easier lubing. Probably a $2 part that would be easy to retro into the JT.

JT



TC

 

[spressomon]

If you have a sponsor then spherical bearings in this application are probably OK. The rest of us...not so much.

What other world of machinery do you see exposed bearing surfaces for the spoils of dirt, sand, water, etc. to contaminate and accelerate wear? None that I can think of. Spherical bearings in this application are relatively cheap and that's the plain and simple of why these things are used for this application. Unfortunately cheap is only defined in the purchase amount...not the total cost of ownership spelled out over years. Its an easy sell...one time

The inner bushings, once again, are based upon easy and cheap to source goods...not better. If you look how the castor is adjusted on a 100 you will see the bushing typically, on a ~2" lifted front end, gets twisted between the alignment plates...forcing them out of parallel and thus causing premature wear.

Grease zirks? Marketing gimmicks. They don't work...grease isn't pushed to all load bearing surfaces...very localized instead.

Just play'n devil's advocate based upon my real world experience of this stuff. If "we" keep buying...they'll keep selling. If we demand better...they'll respond in kind. Simple.

 

[OregonLC]

Dan, I don't disagree with your logic. However, the perfect UCA is unobtanium at the moment. Until then there are some advantages over OEM - alignment and droop - that are definitely worth considering. If you read some of Carl's posts, he doesn't seem to have either the wear problems or noise that are expressed here. Yes, I get he sells them too.

I'd love to see Carl and TC come in and comment on some of these concerns.

 

[Mxndrnks]

As far as TC vs JT, I'm having a hard time seeing the mounting difference between the brands, although the TC look like they have a nice angled zerk to make for easier lubing. Probably a $2 part that would be easy to retro into the JT.

There is no difference other than the Zirk...

As far as alignment... Here is my 0.02. There is a lot of talk about being able to get Caster back in Spec.... But in the real world, the chances are about as good of getting caster back in spec as it is with OEM UCA's. Some will... most wont. In fact, after I started having issues, I was amazed at the number of people that PM'd me having similar issues. I cant and wont recommend these to people looking to get better alignment. Because the chances are greater that you will never get everything back in spec. If you want to run higher speeds in the desert, where that extra 2"+ of droop combined with a remote res shock, make a huge difference.... Then it might be for you if you dont mind the maintenance. At lower crawling speeds, you are just adding more stress to your CV's and Steering rack with the extra 2" of travel. Now, I know some will argue that.... but that is just how I have come to feel about them and what I tell any one that ask. The current after market UCA's are not going to get you any where you cant go with OEM UCA's..... Except under the truck more often....

 

[OregonLC]

There is no difference other than the Zirk...

Thanks, they do look the same.

So doesn't the metal sleeve take the compression between the mounts? I'm trying to visualize how the pinch would affect the bushings. Sounds like the bushing wear/damage above was a direct result of man-handling in the alignment shop?

 

[bluecruiser]

The lube that Carl refers to is for the uniball and the uniball is not the main source of the squeaking that I hear on my rig and others. It's from the frame side bushings. I lube the bushings regularly, but I am also in dust regularly. It's your call, but I would wait to see the Slee upper arms before buying the current offerings.

 

[Mxndrnks]

Thanks, they do look the same.

So doesn't the metal sleeve take the compression between the mounts? I'm trying to visualize how the pinch would affect the bushings. Sounds like the bushing wear/damage above was a direct result of man-handling in the alignment shop?

It takes some... But not all. Like I said, it was only on the one side that was really tweaked. So, due to bad alignments..... One really needs to find a good shop or some one that really understands and has experience with built and modified rigs. The place I use now build Pre-runners and Trophy trucks.....

 

[KlausVanWinkle]

Firestone can't seem to get my alignment right either. A day after the alignment, it started pullinh to the right even at low speeds. I'm getting a lot of outer shoulder wear which is ruining some not so cheap tires. The front wheels look like they're pointed in at the bottom and out at the top. I'm not sure they can get it right. I was hoping some aftermarket UCA's could correct the issues but it sounds like they'll probably just make it worse and trade one problem for another.

So is everyone just waiting to see what Slee comes out with?

 

[AimCOtaco]

The lube that Carl refers to is for the uniball and the uniball is not the main source of the squeaking that I hear on my rig and others. It's from the frame side bushings. I lube the bushings regularly, but I am also in dust regularly. It's your call, but I would wait to see the Slee upper arms before buying the current offerings.

I agree with bluecruiser, in my experience it is the urethane that squeaks. For all out performance (increased maint. aside) you can't beat full a full on Heim/Uniball set-up IMHO. That's what you will find on racing vehicles and why TC offers arms like these:

(This is a Tacoma option, for that platform you get to pick urethane or heim inners).
I think a good inboard heim design would solve the squeak, wear, and deflection of the urethane inner joints. I think this would be very significant on the 100 due to the slotted/adjustable upper arm.

I doubt TC will offer these though because demand would be low. While they would be the best performer from a suspension stand point, they have the potential to be noisy and bring Axle, Tire, Brake, and Bearing noise and vibrations through into the frame and cab.

In my case, my alignment came out great and the Urethane does not look visibly misaligned so hopefully I'll have good luck. The truck handles like magic compared to where I was, but to be fair the upgrades were Iron Man T-bars, SuperPro Rack Mounts and TC arms all at the same time and the T-bars probably made the most felt difference. I no longer want for a front sway bar, the Iron Mans eliminate the need for my use.

Great to get some suspension tech talk going again!

 

[Mxndrnks]

Firestone can't seem to get my alignment right either. A day after the alignment, it started pullinh to the right even at low speeds. I'm getting a lot of outer shoulder wear which is ruining some not so cheap tires. The front wheels look like they're pointed in at the bottom and out at the top. I'm not sure they can get it right. I was hoping some aftermarket UCA's could correct the issues but it sounds like they'll probably just make it worse and trade one problem for another.

So is everyone just waiting to see what Slee comes out with?

First, Find a shop that works on modified Toyota's. Firestone's lifetime alignment is great on stock vehicles and and can work with stock UCA's on mildly lifted LC's. However, as I learned, they like to only go by OEM specs and not what the truck actually does or needs. And once you start adding aftermarket suspensions... the competency goes down quick. You might find a tech there that knows modified suspensions... but dont count on it.

Second - (this is my opinion and I am sure there will be several that may counter it). If you are considering aftermarket UCA's to correct alignment issues, then you should stop now. A lot of the options claim gaining caster as a benefit. But after talking with some of the manufacturers and recommended shops when trying to work out my issues, this is not the way things usually turn out. I also found that even though a lot of the members that run them dont post openly about it....they have had the same experience.

I will wait and see what Slee does. But, once you start down the slippery slope of changing things out, you open a can of worms. I have been chasing down new issues every since switching from a Slee OME medium lift to the Radflo/TC UCA suspension and replacing every soft bushing on the under side, and my Rack, etc...

I have recommended this before and I will go back to it again.... Run what you have until it doesnt work (I.e. something breaks, you cant get where you want to go, etc.), then figure out the fix and only touch that. Resist the urge to go the next bigger/better/cooler mod. And if it aint broke.... dont fix it!

Hope this helps... and as Spresso always says... my .02 cents and probably all it is worth.

 

[jonharis]

OK, I'll jump on board with my experiences, some of which reflect those above and some that don't. I am currently running Just Differential's UCAs which I admittadly got as a package deal when purchasing a bunch of other stuff so the price was good. I installed my lift and the UCAs at the same time around 2 years ago now.

Droop: I do get notiably more droop out of the front end after swapping. Not sure how this really correlates to real world conditions but I feel my truck does not top out very often on fast dirt road driving. Overall i'm 100% happy with this.

Noise, Maintenance: In my last 10 day trip I had a terrable noise comming from the front end of the truck. We all thought it was the uniballs and none of us (Four 100s with UniBall UCAs) had squeaks after a VERY dusty day. It turns out that I actually had a bad lower ball joint. I think 90% of my squeek came from that. Remedy for squeaky uniballs? Carry a can of Teflon Lube. Under normal use I spray mine monthly or after every car wash. takes two seconds per side. As far as the inners go, I have had zero issues with noise on mine. I use M1 grease and grease often. I think Spresso is right about the zirks not being entirely functional in this application, Once or Twice a year I'll loosen the mounting bolts and re-grease. That seems to take care of things. My bushings are a little torn but I don't think there is a negative effect.

Alignment: I think you need to take alignment on a case by case basis. Like above I use Firestone for my alignments and they always turn out spot on within spec. My tire wear shows no sign of any poor alignment. I think the key is to keep your lift reasonable (20-21" from hub center to fender lift with no body lift) and alignments shouldn't be an issue. I'll continue going to Firestone until they give me a reason not to.

Long Term Reliability: The OEM arms have Uniballs beat here. I replaced my first set of Uniballs at ~25k miles due to excessive play. This may or may not be too much for you. Keep in mind that per Spresso, "My kids get more wheeling time than 93% of mud". Your millage will vary and likely be higher.

Keep and eye on BOTH Slee and Just Differentials for new options out there. I think they both might be headed in the right direction for a good compromise in Uniball performance and Ball Joint reliability.

 

[spressomon]

Part of the problem...well mostly in fact...it seems the UCA mfgs are trying to keep a pair at ~ 5 bills. In the world of high quality low volume specialty suspension parts (or any high quality/low volume anything!)...5 bills just gets you into decent quality ball joints...just barely. And real balljoints that are rebuildable and offer much more movement than OEM or uniball are $300 and north EACH.

And no one that I'm aware of makes such a balljoint for the Toyota taper. Let alone the other stuff that makes high quality components in a UCA properly function and last. This is the price for committing to a relatively low volume platform.

So...just remember: Its a pay now or pay later thing if you venture off the OEM parts counter on the front UCAs. Its certainly, and I'm guilty of this, easy to get in to wanting that next little edge...that next 1"...that next carrot. But boy is it a slippery slope!

By the time I got around to building my own UCAs I was already $2200(!!!) invested in the uniball and urethane bushing UCA game (purchase price + spherical bearings + inner bushings + realignments every time I rebuilt the arms); unfortunately I don't have a sponsor . But I haven't spent a dime on maintenance since putting on my current UCAs almost 2-years ago. Cry once; Live and learn.

Just trying to make sure everyone understands how much water is/isn't in the pool when you think you want to make the jump off the high dive

 

[KlausVanWinkle]

Firestone can't seem to get my alignment right either. A day after the alignment, it started pullinh to the right even at low speeds. I'm getting a lot of outer shoulder wear which is ruining some not so cheap tires. The front wheels look like they're pointed in at the bottom and out at the top. I'm not sure they can get it right. I was hoping some aftermarket UCA's could correct the issues but it sounds like they'll probably just make it worse and trade one problem for another.

So is everyone just waiting to see what Slee comes out with?

I reread the pulling to the right thread and tried it today. Hard acceleration no hand on the wheel, then coasting in neutral. No pulling while coasting. I think my issue is the rack or rack bushings and not the UCAs. I'm going to swap rear control arms and rack bushings. Also, my rake is less than it should be because the 860s are overloaded. Fixing that anyway. Hopefully those three things will fix it.

But thanks for the non OEM UCA insights.