Water to air intercooler (1 Viewer)

[awill4x4]

Thank you awill, that's a lot of info!.
I already had seen the ARE website and their graphics, the performance they get is impressive, but the prices, as you say, are very high.
What you said about water leaks into the generic ebay radiators, is what really worries me, if you buy one and it doesn't work, or the performance improvement is minimal, nothing happens, but if you get water into the engine...things become serious.
Personally, I don't think there's a big chance for that to happen, as these cores are very extended in ebay and are sold worldwide, but in a 4wd, with all the extra vibrations, it's more likely to happen.
I'd like to find something in the middle, as I mentioned before (I already emailed Turbo Glide, in Australia, to find out about their price). Don't you know where to get one of those barrel-kind water to air intercoolers at a reasonable price?. I suppose that ones are more reliable, cause are used in specific kits for Toyota and Nissan 4wd by denco and turbo glide for their kits.
If I can't find something reliable reachable for my wallet, I will go to a front mount air to air unit. Maybe not the best solution, but safer.

Cañonero, the Denco barrel coolers are all built by PWR here in Australia so if you decide to go that way compare the prices between the 2 companies. PWR Performance Products
I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the barrel coolers, to my mind they would be better in a square or rectangular shape as when you look inside a barrel cooler there's a lot a wasted room in the tube configuration.
I also prefer the orientation of the water flowing through the tubes as the water flow can be controlled easier. more flow, less flow, high/low pressure whatever you like.
Regards Andrew.

 

[awill4x4]

Intercooler size doesn't affect boost threshold as that's a dictated by exhaust flow more than the intake system.
I don't think intercooler volume is a contributor to lag, but there certainly are people who do.
Air pressure waves travel at the speed of sound (roughly 330m/s), so the time it takes for a pressure wave to get from the turbo to the intake changes very little even with a large amount of piping.
Lag is the time it takes a turbo to spool up when it's needed. Say an engine running with light load at an rpm where max boost is possible, then put the boot in and see how quickly boost builds.
A lot of people try a similar experiment but start at an engine rpm that won't produce full boost. The lag they feel is getting the entire vehicle and engine up to a speed where the turbo can work properly.

Perhaps rather than talking about turbo lag it should be better described as off boost/on boost delay. The time taken from an engine inlet plenum at trailing throttle which is in vacuum (petrol) and back to boost pressure is way better on a top mount with minimal turbo piping.
The time taken to pressurise all the extra volume of a large front mount is a lot more than the top mount or engine bay mounted water/air. This is especially true as turbo sizes increase even though the ball bearing types tend to spool up faster.
For turbo 4x4 comp trucks I am surprised than any of them use front mounts at all apart from the cost. The 1st mud hole they get into, effectively the intercooler doesn't work and needs to be cleaned out before the next stage. They mount their engine radiators at the rear considering most comp trucks are of cab chassis design usually for just that reason. The water to air however the water radiator is mounted at the rear usually above the mud/water level with its own fan system so it keeps working.
Regards Andrew.
It's horses for courses, if I were building a full on high boost car for track racing then air to air is the go. For a car that isn't on the throttle all the time and has time to cool down between high boost runs then either air to air or water to air will do the job nicely but the water to air one will be less "doughy" as the throttle response will be better particularly if the turbo size and intercooler plumbing (front mount) has been increased.
For 4x4 where it's slow speed so limited airflow over the front of the car then water to air is king here.
Regards Andrew.

 

[Dougal]

I feel the need for an experiment.
Take a normal intercooler setup, remove the bonnet and fit a large extra volume to the piping.

Test drive and see how it compares.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Tks Awill4x4

Much appreciated.

Matt

 

[Cañonero]

Hello.

Awill, the only water to air intercoolers I can find in the market are the V-type we were talking about (the ebay ones), and the barrel type. I supposse betweent these two, the barrel one is a better choice, but I can't find the other kind (water flowing through the tubes), I suppose that is like the intercooler that Matt made. I'm very bad at bricolage, so I'd like to find something like that in the market if it's possible.

Awill said:

"The 1st mud hole they get into, effectively the intercooler doesn't work and needs to be cleaned out before the next stage. They mount their engine radiators at the rear considering most comp trucks are of cab chassis design usually for just that reason. The water to air however the water radiator is mounted at the rear usually above the mud/water level with its own fan system so it keeps working"

Well, I usually drive in very muddy tracks so this is interesting, but I don't think there is any other place to mount the water radiator in an 80 but in the front. Perhaps you could have a water to air intercooler and mount the water radiator under the bonnet with an air intake, but that would give you the same heat soak problems that the top mount air to air intercoolers have, wouldn't it?. I also think that, even if it's an water to air system, it's very important to have a good air flow through the radiator, and the best place for that is the front.

 

[awill4x4]

Hello.
Well, I usually drive in very muddy tracks so this is interesting, but I don't think there is any other place to mount the water radiator in an 80 but in the front. Perhaps you could have a water to air intercooler and mount the water radiator under the bonnet with an air intake, but that would give you the same heat soak problems that the top mount air to air intercoolers have, wouldn't it?. I also think that, even if it's an water to air system, it's very important to have a good air flow through the radiator, and the best place for that is the front.

Cañonero, intercooling is always going to be very subjective and there are trade offs no matter what system any one chooses.
Most of the air to air devotees wouldn't even consider water to air an option.
A blocked with mud air to air is almost certainly going to cause problems with engine overheating as they are so thick no air will get past them to cool the radiator.
Have a look at just how large the aftermarket air to air ones that people are using and it's lucky if theres much effective air flow through the radiator in many circumstances.
Manufacturers intercoolers are invariably small if mounted at the front or positioned in a way that doesn't impact on the engine water radiator. (Pajero's and Triton's) come to mind here. (but then they may become vulnerable)
The Patrol's, new V8 diesel Cruisers (I'm not sure of 200 series) , Hilux's, Prado's, Isuzu's are all top mount intercoolers.
They do this as a compromise, they know they are not as efficient but they won't effect the engine cooling so that's acceptable.
I'm lucky I'm involved with people who like to think outside of the square and look at other options without any prejudice either way.
The guy I do welding for after hours is convinced Matt's intercooler won't work but I'm in Matt's camp here and I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to surprise a few people with just how effective it is. So much so, I've bought a dozen Laminova cores so I can have a play with them.
Either way, I'm glad to have played a small part in welding it together, Matt deserves all the accolades if it does work.
I admire people who aren't afraid to try something different, Matt's idea of the Laminova cores has intrigued me and I really wish him well with his concept.
I have some ideas of slicing a Nissan TD42 diesel inlet manifold like a layer cake to expose the inlet ports and build/weld a curved plenum into which I can place 4 or more Laminova cores but have it configured so it doesn't cross the rocker the cover and make tappet clearance servicing a major issue.
These are the projects that I'm excited about, anyone can buy a generic front mount cooler, hack away and fit it and either plumb it themselves or pay someone else to throw some tubing at it.
I'm not at all interested in that, I much prefer to work on the fringes with something completely out of left field. If it doesn't work big deal I'll remember that and try something else.
This is why I work on Matts Laminova cooler, my mates water to air and many others that are generally some kind of compromise.
Below are some pics of ones I've built, all are custom and one off's but they all interested me at the time of building them.
Regards Andrew.

 

[awill4x4]

By the way, in case you haven't guessed, I'm not afraid of using top mount intercoolers especially in a 4x4 situation.
Yes, there's heat soak in slow speed but just how much power do we use when we are in low range. Not a lot, most of the time we are usually concerned with traction and not with pushing the pedal to the metal.
They are usually safe from mud and so they won't effect your engine radiator and getting you home with the minimum of fuss.
At highway speeds they aren't as effective as a front mount but we are driving 2+ tonnes 4x4's not sports cars so again we get my favourite word Compromise.
Regards Andrew.

 

[Cañonero]

Hello Andrew.

In fact, my main aim was to get a top mount intercooler. Is the easyest to install (apart from cutting the bonnet) and simplest. But most of the people told me about low performance, heat soak problems, and even engine overheating problems. Also talked with some people with toyota 80 series that had a top mount and swapped to front mount so I aimed myself to the air to water or front mount units. Also, I couldn't find an aftermarket top mount unit big enough for the 80 (I told you I can't do like you cause I'm very bad doing these kind of jobs and I have to tell my mechanic to do everything for me). Anyway, if I could find an aftermarket top mount suitable for the 80 and a bonnet air intake that suits, I would still think about it.

Moreover, I took your suggestion and went to take a look at PWR intercoolers and they are really interesting. They are in fact the same as Denco and they have kits at much lower prices. The only thing is that their kit is generic and it will need some pipework (the denco comes with the modified manifold included), anyway, nothing to worry about.

I found a PWR distributor in the US that sells these universal kits.

Absolute Radiator Intercooler Store

What I don't understand is this:

To select the proper intercooler for your application: (1.) Chose the appropriate diameter based on CFM needed. (2.) Select the longest intercooler based on available space, to obtain the densest air charge.

What¡s the CFM?, and, between all the sizes appearing there, what one would be better for a 4.2 Turbo Diesel?. I've been told that, for a turbo diesel, you should get the intercooler double horsepower capability. For the 80 turbo diesel, that aims to the 6x10 or 6x8, but I'm sure denco units in the 80 kits are smaller.

By the way, does somebody know the size of the intercooler that comes with de denco kit for the 80?

Thanks a lot.

 

[lynchmob]

Has anyone ever considered the Toyota or Subaru (or other) stock water to air intercoolers? Are they any good?

Toyota made one for the turbo 2.0 l in the celica and subaru made them as well. Are they worth trying or are they too small from these engines?

 

[Dougal]

Has anyone ever considered the Toyota or Subaru (or other) stock water to air intercoolers? Are they any good?

Toyota made one for the turbo 2.0 l in the celica and subaru made them as well. Are they worth trying or are they too small from these engines?

I considered a subaru one for my Isuzu engine, but the shape just didn't work for me.
I do have the electric water pump for one.

Have you guys considered a ducted top mount intercoolers?
Like the 90/95 and 200 series landcruiser. Keep the air coming from the front and avoid having to cut holes through the bonnet (hood).
A fan underneath the radiator will help it at low speed, but I agree with Awill that it's hard to use lots of boost at slow speed anyway.
It won't work for me due to space constraints.

The two reasons I haven't done a front mount.
1. Space for the hoses.
2. The fear of damaging the core and getting debris into the engine all the way home. An air/water system in the same situation will leak but keep your intake system sealed.

 

[Cañonero]

I'm dealing with a guy that sells a 6"x8" PWR water to liquid intercooler kit, it's new (he said he had to sell his car before installing it) and the price is quite good, still has some warranty.

Here is the PWR site:
http://www.pwr.com.au/coolers_ltoa.html

Mi doubt is: won't the 6"x8" be too big? It's rated to 600HP, I know some people say, the bigger the better with the intercooler, specially with the water to air units, with less pressure drop, but the specific kits for the 80 series sold in Australia by denco diesel and turbo glide use the 4X10 unit, rated to 300HP.
As well, the site absolute radiator, distributor of PWR products, says: "To select the proper intercooler for your application: (1.) Chose the appropriate diameter based on CFM needed. (2.) Select the longest intercooler based on available space, to obtain the densest air charge." I don't know the CFM (cubic feet per minute) need by the 80, but if the Australian guys choose the 4"x10" unit, they may have their reasons. What could be the consequences of having a much bigger intercooler than, in theory, needed?

PD: 4" intercoolers like the one by denco, has 390 CFM, 6" one have 920

Thank you.

 

[Tapage]

did you know the size for the inlet and outlet .. I'm just wondering how much turbo lag you will get from this huge water - air aftercooler.

 

[Cañonero]

Yes, the inlets and outlets of the 6x8 are 3", the 4x10 has 2.25" inlets and outlets (i think the same diameter as the turbo manifold of the 80).

You think I'll get turbo lag, but always less than with a front mount unint, wont I?, or will the huge cooling capability produce turbo lag even without any extra piping at all?

I'm just guessing, I have no idea.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Too big is just as bad as too small.

 

[daboheme]

Some trucks use engine coolant with water-to-air intercoolers. Plumb outlet of the radiator through intercooler into block. You'll get heating of intake air when not boosting, but that's not a major concern imo. Flow of water through the intercooler must obviously be good. Opinions?

 

[awill4x4]

I'm dealing with a guy that sells a 6"x8" PWR water to liquid intercooler kit, it's new (he said he had to sell his car before installing it) and the price is quite good, still has some warranty.
Here is the PWR site:
http://www.pwr.com.au/coolers_ltoa.html
Mi doubt is: won't the 6"x8" be too big? It's rated to 600HP, I know some people say, the bigger the better with the intercooler, specially with the water to air units, with less pressure drop, but the specific kits for the 80 series sold in Australia by denco diesel and turbo glide use the 4X10 unit, rated to 300HP.
As well, the site absolute radiator, distributor of PWR products, says: "To select the proper intercooler for your application: (1.) Chose the appropriate diameter based on CFM needed. (2.) Select the longest intercooler based on available space, to obtain the densest air charge." I don't know the CFM (cubic feet per minute) need by the 80, but if the Australian guys choose the 4"x10" unit, they may have their reasons. What could be the consequences of having a much bigger intercooler than, in theory, needed?
PD: 4" intercoolers like the one by denco, has 390 CFM, 6" one have 920
Thank you.

Cañonero, if you can get it a good price and you have adequate room to fit it in your engine bay then grab it. In my opinion the 4" diameter ones are too small, the number of tubes they can fit in aren't many at all the 6" even though it's shorter length would be a much better alternative.
Regards Andrew

 

[awill4x4]

Some trucks use engine coolant with water-to-air intercoolers. Plumb outlet of the radiator through intercooler into block. You'll get heating of intake air when not boosting, but that's not a major concern imo. Flow of water through the intercooler must obviously be good. Opinions?

daboheme, I'm sorry but you've got the wrong idea here. A correctly set up water to air intercooler uses a separate water supply from the engine cooling circuit, it also has it's own radiator to get rid of heat from the water heated up by the intake charge from the turbo.
Regards Andrew.

 

[Cañonero]

Daboheme, that was my first idea, to use the engine radiator, makes it simple and cheap. I also thought about adding an extra fan to the engine radiator to help it with the extra work to cool the intercooler, but all the setups with water to air radiators I've seen use an independent radiator and fan to cool the intercooler water, so I think it's worth investing the money in the whole kit.

Anyway, there may be someone that have used the engine radiator, would be interesting to know their experience.

Matt, I agree with you that too big is not good, but the question is: would the 6x8" PWR barrel be definetly too big for the 80?

If we measure the volume of the barrel, the volume of the cilynder is equal to 3.1416*r2*l, so, this barrel volume is 226.19 cubic inches. The inlet and outlet are 3". It can flow 920 CFM.

If, as an example I take the measures of the allisport specific air to air intercooler for the 80 (the most popular intercooler for Toyota 4wd in England), is 24 inches lenght x 14 inches tall x 2.5 inches width, that gives a volume of 840 cubic inches. The inlet and outlet are 2.5". It can flow 500 CFM.

The air volume into the allisport one is much bigger but it has much smaller flowing capability. The denco kit has 390 CFM.

My worry now is, what are the consequences of such a big CFM?

Thanks.

 

[daboheme]

Andrew, don't be sorry. I realize most (but not all) water-to-air intercoolers use a totally separate water system, and probably for good reason to. I wouldn't want my engine to overheat because of a problem with my intercooling system. But by using the engine coolant, you've already got a decent water pump and radiator. Some trucks use engine coolant, and I consider my LC to be a truck, so why not? And with engine radiator, aircon radiator, extra transmission radiators AND intercooler water radiator... All the extra plumbing get's interesting, anyway.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Cañonero, if you can get it a good price and you have adequate room to fit it in your engine bay then grab it. In my opinion the 4" diameter ones are too small, the number of tubes they can fit in aren't many at all the 6" even though it's shorter length would be a much better alternative.
Regards Andrew

Matt, I agree with you that too big is not good, but the question is: would the 6x8" PWR barrel be definetly too big for the 80?

Thanks.

Go with Andrews advice I merely dabble and read a lot. Until my home brew intercooler is tested I'm am mere amateur. But in my quest to build a suitable water to air intercooler I have read much, calculated until my brain hurts. Even tickled Awill4x4's interest to the point he bought 12 Laminova cores just to play with. His will be better than mine



My turbo calcs, these maybe incorrect Turbo is a Garrett GT3082R

9PSI
650 RPM 50CFM 5 Lb/PerMin
1000RPM 76CFM 8 Lb/PerMin
1500RPM 114CFM 12 Lb/PerMin
2000RPM 152CFM 15 Lb/PerMin
2500RPM 191CFM 20 Lb/PerMin
3000RPM 228CFM 24 Lb/PerMin
3500RPM 267CFM 27 Lb/PerMin
4000RPM 305CFM 32 Lb/PerMin
4500RPM 343CFM 35 Lb/PerMin
5000RPM 380CFM 40 Lb/PerMin
5500RMP 419CFM 43 Lb/PerMin

15PSI

The CFM remains constant but Lb/PerMin incresses with as you cram more air in
6LbPer/Min
9 Lb/PerMin
14 Lb/PerMin
20 Lb/PerMin
25 Lb/PerMin
29 Lb/PerMin
35 Lb/PerMin
40 Lb/PerMin
45 Lb/PerMin
49 Lb/PerMin
55 Lb/PerMin

A stock 2F will use just under the above CFM as mine is now just over 4300cc but pretty close.

IH8MUD.com Forum - View Single Post - 2F + 3F-E = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40

Spent the evening calculating Turbo outlet temps for the Garrett GT3082R @ 70F/21C ambient and from what I can work out at 9psi the outlet temp should be around 180F/82C at 15psi the outlet temp rises to 227F/108C.

Now if the intercooler is as good as I hope we should be looking at some good results.
If I have done my math right and built a intercooler that works.

Calcs using this.
Turbocharger Compressor Calculations