Water to air intercooler (1 Viewer)

[Cañonero]

I've been researching about water to air intercoolers and they are interesting. The pipe work is very easy, as the water pipes are much thinner (1/2") and flexible. The turbo lag would also be minimal, cause you can connect it directly to the turbo under the bonnet.

But, after reading some articles and opinions in other forums, some people think that, as happens with the top mount intercooler, the heat soak from the engine overheats the intercooler when stopped and at low speed and, even worse, the hot water needs more time to cool down than the hot air. Some other people think they are great and much better than the air to air units. What do you think?

Anyway, here you have some very interesting articles and links about it so you can judge by yourself:

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html
http://autospeed.com/A_107760/cms/article.html
http://www.frozenboost.com/index.php?cPath=16&osCsid=268202216303f88710cb580d2f19b74c
http://www.frozenboost.com/stpg.php?page_id=water_to_air&osCsid=268202216303f88710cb580d2f19b74c
http://www.frozenboost.com/stpg.php?page_id=water_to_air_faq&osCsid=268202216303f88710cb580d2f19b74c
I'd give them a chance, but, I don't often see water to air intercooler in Land Cruiser, so I'm not sure.

I want to mount two transmission radiators cause I'm having heat problems with transmission oil (in sand tracks with heavy load), so I don't have much space in the front and the small water radiators of these systems would be perfect for me, rather than a big thick intercooler.

What do you think?, would you give them a chance?

 

[Dougal]

I am amused by people concerned over turbo lag in a diesel 4wd.

Lag hasn't been an issue with any diesel I've driven. But the boost threshold (the rpm that it takes to get boost) has been.

I've run a homemade water/air intercooler before, but here's a link to a very well made one that I don't think has been tested yet.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/178335-home-brew-intercooler.html

None of the concerns you mentioned are a problem if you design the system properly. If you screw it up then anything is possible.

 

[lynchmob]

Denco Diesel and Turbo:: Intercoolers

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Not far off testing

I have found some interesting info for a what I belive is a 2 or 3 core Laminova unit in a Mazda

See the torture turbo intercooler test.

http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/mazda/miata-dyno-results.pdf

 

[Cañonero]

Well, I already heard about that the turbo lag is not a problem in turbo diesels, but some people think it is.

Anyway, the boost threshold would be lower the smaller is the intercooler, I guess, is that correct?, resulting in better torque at low rpm.

If not, then I can't see the advantage of having a small core intercooler.

In any intercooler guide, they always recommend not to mount excesive thick pipes and excesive big intercooler core, to avoid turbo pressure drop. The kind of intercooler with less pressure drop is the water to air intercooler, but, if the only bad consequence of the pressure drop is the turbo lag, and that's not a problem in turbo diesel, then there is no point in mounting water to air intercooler in turbo diesels.

I'm only guessing. Can anyone with a better knowledge than me put some light into it?

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Lag is a problem for petrol or diesel. The more piping and bigger the intercooler the more lag.

A inercooler and it's piping should be no bigger than absoloutly nessercery.

You need to know how much boost you intend to run and the temps is generates. As well as your est HP.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Good info here.

Intercooler Theory

 

[Cañonero]

Between these three models:

http://www.frozenboost.com/index.php?cPath=16&osCsid=268202216303f88710cb580d 2f19b74c

I would choose the 350 BHP one, because the water radiator is smaller, but I' aiming to get 200 BHP, and I read that, for diesels, it's reccomendable to get intercoolers able to handle two times the horsepower, so that leds me to the 600 BHP one, the problem is the thin 1" water radiator is no longer provided, and they now have a bigger one 3.5" thick!!, plus 2.5" of the fan, leaves absolutely no room even if I removed the transmision oil cooler. The coolant power with that radiator would be huge, but there's no way to place it.

Do you think it would be enough with the 350 BHP unit for a 4.2 turgbo diesel with 200 BHP?

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Reading their info these coolers will suck, cheap intercooler yes but what you pay for is what you get.

Have a good read on all you can find. Intercoolers are very complicatated, yes I have built my own, but after extencive reading and on a wing and a prayer. Though the final outcome is starting to look promising.

This was no cake walk and many are awating its testing.

Between these three models:

http://www.frozenboost.com/index.php?cPath=16&osCsid=268202216303f88710cb580d 2f19b74c

I would choose the 350 BHP one, because the water radiator is smaller, but I' aiming to get 200 BHP, and I read that, for diesels, it's reccomendable to get intercoolers able to handle two times the horsepower, so that leds me to the 600 BHP one, the problem is the thin 1" water radiator is no longer provided, and they now have a bigger one 3.5" thick!!, plus 2.5" of the fan, leaves absolutely no room even if I removed the transmision oil cooler. The coolant power with that radiator would be huge, but there's no way to place it.

Do you think it would be enough with the 350 BHP unit for a 4.2 turgbo diesel with 200 BHP?

 

[matt.mcinnes]

This quote is very suspect. The nature of an intercooler is to cool air, hot air takes up more space than cold air basic phisics. Hence no pressure drop no cooling.

Pressure Drop: Less than 0.1 PSI. This is not a typo! Liquid/Air Intercoolers have incredibly low pressure drop.

 

[Cañonero]

I think that, when they talk about pressure drop, they mean the pressure drop due to the size of the intercooler compared with an air to air one, and not the drop due to the cooling.

I agree that this is not the best intercooler kit and I would go straight to the denco one, if I had the money for it, but it's not my case. The part that is more likely to fail is the water pump, and, for $69 more you can have a bosch pump, that is a well known and reliable pump (I've seen bosch pumps in BMW'S and Mercedes).

About the quality of the rest of the components, I can't tell, but for the price it's maybe worth trying. What do you think?. For this money, would you try this kit or would you go for an air/air system?. I must say that an air to air system would be difficult for me to fit, because of the transmission coolers I'm going to mount, but, if there's no other way, I'd go for the air to air unit.

Moreover, what do you think about a 350 BHP for a 200 BHP turbo diesel?, would it be enough? (the maximum size of air to air intercooler that fits me is, as well a 350 BHP one):

 

[matt.mcinnes]

I think that, when they talk about pressure drop, they mean the pressure drop due to the size of the intercooler compared with an air to air one, and not the drop due to the cooling.

I agree that this is not the best intercooler kit and I would go straight to the denco one, if I had the money for it, but it's not my case. The part that is more likely to fail is the water pump, and, for $69 more you can have a bosch pump, that is a well known and reliable pump (I've seen bosch pumps in BMW'S and Mercedes).

About the quality of the rest of the components, I can't tell, but for the price it's maybe worth trying. What do you think?. For this money, would you try this kit or would you go for an air/air system?. I must say that an air to air system would be difficult for me to fit, because of the transmission coolers I'm going to mount, but, if there's no other way, I'd go for the air to air unit.

Moreover, what do you think about a 350 BHP for a 200 BHP turbo diesel?, would it be enough? (the maximum size of air to air intercooler that fits me is, as well a 350 BHP one):

Their pressure drop quote is as you can see vague and open to interpretation. The pump as you have noticed as very cheap looking.
Most of the cooling in an intercooler is on the surface areas, very low pressure drops suggest poor surface area contact and therefor poor cooling. Surface area contact is friction and slows down the air creating pressure drop. If the air passes too quickly and unrestricted it will not cool.

I have to be honest and say don't waste your money.

I agree too that Denco's intercoolers are expensive.

Hence I built my own.

 

[Cañonero]

Hello Matt.

I appreciate your sincerity.

So, being my wallet limited at this moment, would you advise me to mount an air to air intercooler, or just try to get an "in the middle solution" between the expensive denco and the cheap frozenboos?

I found this page, that makes air to liquid especific kit for the 80 series, and, although they don't have the price for it, I think they will be cheaper than the denco kit.

They are australian so you might know the price.

Turbo-Glide: Air to Water Intercoolers

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Hello Matt.

I appreciate your sincerity.

So, being my wallet limited at this moment, would you advise me to mount an air to air intercooler, or just try to get an "in the middle solution" between the expensive denco and the cheap frozenboos?

I found this page, that makes air to liquid especific kit for the 80 series, and, although they don't have the price for it, I think they will be cheaper than the denco kit.

They are australian so you might know the price.

Turbo-Glide: Air to Water Intercoolers

Quite a few barrel types around, I have no idea of cost though you would have to drop them an email.

Their is I'm afraid no easy answer. Just advice.

 

[Cañonero]

I remember to have seen some barrel type at good price, but I'm trying to find them again and I can't. All barrel type intercooler are over $500. Can you give the address of some site where I can find that type of intercooler at better prices?

By the way, most of the water intercoolers I find in the internet are the V design, like frozenboost one.

You said that intercooler is not efficcient, but, do you mean the frozenboost is not efficcient or all the V type ones?.

Here's a link of one that looks good.

BRAND NEW! LIQUID INTERCOOLER ASSEMBLY - AIR / WATER on eBay, also Engine Tuning Parts, Performance Tuning Parts, Car Tuning Styling, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 04-Apr-08 20:56:32 BST)

 

[Radd Cruisers]

Local guy and current Mudder installed a Denco unit into his HDJ81, he mentioned a 2PSI drop in pressure.

Not sure if he did a pics and write up on his findings yet?

Rob

 

[matt.mcinnes]

I remember to have seen some barrel type at good price, but I'm trying to find them again and I can't. All barrel type intercooler are over $500. Can you give the address of some site where I can find that type of intercooler at better prices?

By the way, most of the water intercoolers I find in the internet are the V design, like frozenboost one.

You said that intercooler is not efficcient, but, do you mean the frozenboost is not efficcient or all the V type ones?.

Here's a link of one that looks good.

BRAND NEW! LIQUID INTERCOOLER ASSEMBLY - AIR / WATER on eBay, also Engine Tuning Parts, Performance Tuning Parts, Car Tuning Styling, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 04-Apr-08 20:56:32 BST)

I mean that one, I'll ask a friend to have a read of this post he build custom inter-coolers for a living. He knows his tec stuff well.

 

[awill4x4]

I mean that one, I'll ask a friend to have a read of this post he build custom inter-coolers for a living. He knows his tec stuff well.

I don't know about that Matt, it's just a hobby of mine, the intercoolers I build are usually the after hours ones that interest me like yours Matt.
OK, I've had a look online at the "frozen boost" ones and they are the same generic ebay ones you see everywhere. Not having seen one in the flesh my main concern is the core used, no pics I've seen have shown the core or its construction.
My worry is they've used cheap chinese bar and plate cores which in their design and manufacture are made of lots of pieces that are brazed together so if it's not perfect it can leak.
A leak in an air to air is not a problem but a leak in a water to air and in a diesel is a recipe for disaster.
There is less likelihood of tube and fin cores leaking because of their extruded construction.
Their horsepower claims are just figures they've pulled out of the air in my opinion. They may well flow enough air but will they pull the temps down enough, probably not for the bhp figures they quote.
I'll give you a link to the best water to air intercoolers you'll ever see bar none, it's from ARE in Queensland Australia. (We are clever buggers here in Oz, didn't Matt ever tell you?)
ARE Cooling (Aluminium Radiators & Engineering P/L)
I hope you've got a bit of time because it's the most informative water to air info you'll find anywhere. There's a build up on Heath Lawsons GU Nissan Patrol about half way down the page that is one of the most comprehensive 4x4 water to air build ups I've seen. The 1st 3 pics at the top of the page link to their own page and the most insane water to air i/cooler setup in the world.
Those 3 cars produce bhp ranging from 1500 to nearly 1900bhp at the wheels but they were built primarily as dyno queens where it's like a p1ssing contest where mine makes better numbers than yours.
The fact remains however that these are the best intercoolers in the world bar none. My current project is a water to air using the same cores as these guys just not as many. They are using 8 cores we are using 3 and welding them together. It will be a top mount going on a supercharged LS1 with some very nice engine intenals going into a 52 Ford Mercury. The core size we'll end up with is just under 6" thick X 16" X 16" approx.
The pic below shows the core construction and just how different it is to normal intercooler cores. These cores also are used as oil cooler cores so are designed to flow fluid and will take the pressure with no problems. The fluid/water flows down the tubes and the air goes through the fins.

We've already got the cores welded together and the next step is to weld on the water tanks. Each core has its separate tanks and each core will have its own water pump so 3 pumps in total.
We're taking pics as we go but I can't post them untill it's all finished and Darren the owner lets me but it's an awesome project to be involved with.
To give you an idea of cost, the price of the cores alone was $1300 Aus and we've got a lot of work to do before it's all finished.
Regards Andrew.

 

[Cañonero]

Thank you awill, that's a lot of info!.

I already had seen the ARE website and their graphics, the performance they get is impressive, but the prices, as you say, are very high.

What you said about water leaks into the generic ebay radiators, is what really worries me, if you buy one and it doesn't work, or the performance improvement is minimal, nothing happens, but if you get water into the engine...things become serious.

Personally, I don't think there's a big chance for that to happen, as these cores are very extended in ebay and are sold worldwide, but in a 4wd, with all the extra vibrations, it's more likely to happen.

I'd like to find something in the middle, as I mentioned before (I already emailed Turbo Glide, in Australia, to find out about their price). Don't you know where to get one of those barrel-kind water to air intercoolers at a reasonable price?. I suppose that ones are more reliable, cause are used in specific kits for Toyota and Nissan 4wd by denco and turbo glide for their kits.

If I can't find something reliable reachable for my wallet, I will go to a front mount air to air unit. Maybe not the best solution, but safer.

 

[Dougal]

Well, I already heard about that the turbo lag is not a problem in turbo diesels, but some people think it is.

Anyway, the boost threshold would be lower the smaller is the intercooler, I guess, is that correct?, resulting in better torque at low rpm.

If not, then I can't see the advantage of having a small core intercooler.

In any intercooler guide, they always recommend not to mount excesive thick pipes and excesive big intercooler core, to avoid turbo pressure drop. The kind of intercooler with less pressure drop is the water to air intercooler, but, if the only bad consequence of the pressure drop is the turbo lag, and that's not a problem in turbo diesel, then there is no point in mounting water to air intercooler in turbo diesels.

I'm only guessing. Can anyone with a better knowledge than me put some light into it?

Intercooler size doesn't affect boost threshold as that's a dictated by exhaust flow more than the intake system.

I don't think intercooler volume is a contributor to lag, but there certainly are people who do.
Air pressure waves travel at the speed of sound (roughly 330m/s), so the time it takes for a pressure wave to get from the turbo to the intake changes very little even with a large amount of piping.

Lag is the time it takes a turbo to spool up when it's needed. Say an engine running with light load at an rpm where max boost is possible, then put the boot in and see how quickly boost builds.
A lot of people try a similar experiment but start at an engine rpm that won't produce full boost. The lag they feel is getting the entire vehicle and engine up to a speed where the turbo can work properly.