Water temp gauge t-shooting, advice needed

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Actually .9 bar converts to 13 psi, .97 bar converts to 14 psi. The significates of psi is a higher boiling rate so for every psi (3 degrees for every 1 psi) which in turn can help prevent overheating. If the cap is too high (depending on condition of cooling system) it can lead to overflow, leaks, or damage

Numbers are with 50/50 coolant
3 x 13 psi = 39* above 220 for a sum of 259*
3 x 14* +42* .....262*

Done nerding out with Hazmat/O-chem stuff. :)
Is that Celsius or Fahrenheit?
Quick reminder that its a Toyota, so it was born with SI units, even if you guys weren't ;)
Btw.. Sounds like the fuel gauge might need its regulator cleaning to me.
 
OK, we should get back to the Original Post….troubleshooting his gage cluster. I do not think your Motocraft Solid State voltage regulator is an issue….keeps the battery charged,….so that’s a plus. Nor do I think a solid state regulator will ‘buzz’….there are no moving parts. Your ‘buzz’ could be anywhere….

If you have a voltage drop to the cluster, chances are a dirty/corroded terminal or a poor ground. Personally, I’d vote on a ground.
 
OK, we should get back to the Original Post….troubleshooting his gage cluster. I do not think your Motocraft Solid State voltage regulator is an issue….keeps the battery charged,….so that’s a plus. Nor do I think a solid state regulator will ‘buzz’….there are no moving parts. Your ‘buzz’ could be anywhere….

If you have a voltage drop to the cluster, chances are a dirty/corroded terminal or a poor ground. Personally, I’d vote on a ground.
I'm thinking that buzz could be the fuel gauge regulator
 
On 76, I thought they went to a resistance float. The ‘buzz’ type was change I think in 74….you’d have to ask @Living in the Past. He’s our model/yransition year expert.
Im not sure, but my 77 still has a regulator in the gauge though, and after nearly 50 years it's getting
weary.
 
On 76, I thought they went to a resistance float. The ‘buzz’ type was change I think in 74….you’d have to ask @Living in the Past. He’s our model/yransition year expert.

Certain things I know dates of a change over file sending a fuel gauge is not one of them. Quick search did show 9/72-1/79.sendind unit was was the same. 9/72-9/73 is a one year gauge. 9/73-1/79 gauge was the same. 73 was a transition year for the instrument cluster. Gauge mount changed 9/73 with the printed circuit board. Probably the reason 73 is a one year. Mounted like the old style gauges but values were style.
 
I just replaced the the fuel sending unit when I replaced the gas tank, I'm not sure if I have a regulator for that or not. I purchased this one from City Racer. I have heard a buzzing coming from the passenger firewall, and Ive heard it in that vicinity when the hood is open. If its not the regulator, what do y'all spose it might be? I did just recently have to replace the battery, so I'll do some checks tomorrow to make sure the regulator is working as expected.

Either way, sounds like that might be a red herring. One of the things I don't understand when I look at the electrical schematics for the '78 is which terminals (referred to as B and C above in the FSM where I had a couple tests fail) land on the schematic. What would result in a varying voltage between 2 and 7v?
 
The main regulator only matters when the engine is running. The rest of the time the battery voltage is what it is.

I think you're measuring 2-7v at the water temp sensor cable at the thermostat housing with the sensor disconnected?

The feed voltage for this circuit is regulated to around 7v by a small regulator inside the fuel gauge.
It could be a bad connection in between the temp gauge and the sender, or it could be a bad feed voltage from the fuel gauge.

Test the voltage at the output pin on the fuel gauge ( the one highlighted red). See how it feeds the temp sensor pin (blue).

If that is a good solid 7V (unusual), then check the temp sensor pin voltage at the circular connector.

20230815_162216.jpg
 
I did some more data gathering on this, and I think I had a bit of a breakthrough. Here's the TLDR: Although the OEM water temp sender was slightly closer the FSM spec compared to the CityRacer aftermarket sender, they were both in the right ballpark. The issue in my case seems to be more about how high the sender is sitting (I don't believe it was fully-immersed in coolant) due to a janky union. Read on for more details...

Since I still had my old sender, the new CityRacer aftermarket sender and the OEM sender, perfect time for a test. I took a bit of scrap metal (a simpson structural tie I had leftover from a reno), a stepper drill bit to embiggen the holes, and some scrap pieces of rubber fuel hose to keep the senders tight against the metal strap for continuity. I set em into a pan of water on the stove. Here's the setup:

IMG_5447.jpeg


Took the meat thermometer and taped it so it was immersed (it looks super-professional):

IMG_5450.jpeg


Anyways, here was my testing methodology:
  1. Verify continuity / no resistance between the metal strap and the body of each sender
  2. Check temperature at FSM Values (140F, 176F, 212F, 221F)
  3. Bring temperature 2 degrees higher than target temp, turn stove off (not sure if induction will interfere or not)
  4. Let temp come down to target temp, take Ohm readings
I did this for temps up to 176F, but ran into a problem at boiling, because of course I did. The hottest I could keep water temp with the stove off was 207F, beyond that it the stove needed to be on for a roiling boil. I did not have enough granularity to consistently hit 212 or 221, so I decided to just use the data I had and go to a spreadsheet. If I were to do this again, I'd use cooking oil and that would allow me to hit the temps I needed.

Here's the spreadsheet results:
IMG_5458.png


I think it's fair to say that the OEM sender most-closely matches the electrical resistance called out in the FSM, but the CityRacer is pretty close. The old sender which was on the truck when I bought it was way out of tolerance, showing much higher resistance compared to everything else.

That said, this would mean that:
  1. I should have been getting accurate readings from the CityRacer sender, but they were showing high compared to what the thermostat / output hose read when using the laser thermometer
  2. The OEM sender would give me an even higher temp in the same circumstances, whereas the original sender would have been giving an artificially lower temp on the gauge.

This was a real head-scratcher, but I decided to re-assemble the truck and have a think on it later. I used permatex high-temp thread sealant on the new OEM sender, but as I had used teflon tape on the CityRacer one, I wanted to clean the threads out of the union, so I used a wire brush on a drill to clean up the threads. Re-installed everything, and I have a leak on the temp sender. :confused:

Did some research, figured I didn't knead/mix the tube of thread sealer enough, or let it cure long enough. So I made a new mess, took the sender out, cleaned everything up again, put a more thorough amount of thread sealer on, waited 24 hours, and it still leaks! :mad:. At this point I'm kinda like eff-it, back to the teflon tape. So I pull the sender again, clean the sealant off the threads, wrap it with a healthy amount of tape, and it still leaks:bang: ... At this point I'm starting to notice the sender is sitting lower in the union compared to the prior one, but I decide to try one more time (pull sender / clean threads / re-wrap in teflon tape). This time it still leaks, but only a teeny bit, so I run the engine up to operating temp, and.... The gauge is reading on the "B" marker when engine is around 190-200F. It works!

So... the OEM sender should have read hotter, but Im getting a lower temp on the gauge. I think its the position of the sender. See the before / after:
IMG_5428.jpeg

IMG_5456.jpeg


I'm not sure I have the right union on there. If I were to not use thread sealer / teflon tape, I would be able to finger-tighten that sender until it is touching the top of the union. When I used the wire brush to clean out the threads, I think I also cleaned out whatever thread sealer the prior owner had used to stop the leak as well.

New union on-order from CruiserTeq (queue sounds of loading the parts cannon)... I'll update the thread for a final comparison shot to see if Im right about the union not being right when I get the new part installed. Either way, I'm happy that the temp gauge is reading correctly now, but I need to once again go and pull that sender and wrap it with all the teflon tape I have in my possession to get me through the weekend...
 
I wanted to close the loop on this one. I ordered a replacement water temperature sending union, assuming that the one I had must have been non-OEM. I now believe that it was OEM, but the threads were absolutely torn up, thus the ability for me to seat the temperature sender so low. Here's a side-by-side comparison:

IMG_5469.jpeg

IMG_5470.jpeg


Photo is a bit blurry, sorry bout that. Long story short, the OEM temp sender (as well as the CityRacer one) wouldn't bottom out in the new union, but did in the old. So I installed the new union, used high-temp thread sealer on the new sender, and let it sit overnight. It did not sit as low as before (pretty much the same height as where I started w/ the CityRacer temp sender):

IMG_5471.jpeg


I also ran the truck for awhile on an incline in the backyard to burp out any air pockets, running w/ the heat on (this was prior to heading up for camping, thus the gear):

IMG_5472.jpeg


In the end, when the engine is warm the gauge now reads just past the 2nd tick mark (a little further past the 50ohm reading I showed earlier in this thread when I was testing resistance values). I see it go up to about the middle of the gauge when working hard uphill on a hot day. I think for all intents and purposes, I am going to call this good enough.

So what did I learn? I'm not sure to be honest. I think I've changed too many variables to reach a solid conclusion, and I'm no longer convinced that the issue was the depth/position of the temp sender. Im not sure how bad threads on a union would result in any real different readings, and based on my stove-top testing, I should be getting higher gauge values than the CR sender, not lower. So perhaps the issue was an air pocket, no idea.

I will still chase down the electrical testing in the gauge cluster that @45Dougal mentioned, but that will be for another day when I re-address dim lighting for the cluster at night.

If anyone has any other theories here, I would love to hear 'em... As it stands, I can't pinpoint any one reason why I was getting high readings.
 
I wanted to close the loop on this one. I ordered a replacement water temperature sending union, assuming that the one I had must have been non-OEM. I now believe that it was OEM, but the threads were absolutely torn up, thus the ability for me to seat the temperature sender so low. Here's a side-by-side comparison:

View attachment 3946906
View attachment 3946907

Photo is a bit blurry, sorry bout that. Long story short, the OEM temp sender (as well as the CityRacer one) wouldn't bottom out in the new union, but did in the old. So I installed the new union, used high-temp thread sealer on the new sender, and let it sit overnight. It did not sit as low as before (pretty much the same height as where I started w/ the CityRacer temp sender):

View attachment 3946914

I also ran the truck for awhile on an incline in the backyard to burp out any air pockets, running w/ the heat on (this was prior to heading up for camping, thus the gear):

View attachment 3946915

In the end, when the engine is warm the gauge now reads just past the 2nd tick mark (a little further past the 50ohm reading I showed earlier in this thread when I was testing resistance values). I see it go up to about the middle of the gauge when working hard uphill on a hot day. I think for all intents and purposes, I am going to call this good enough.

So what did I learn? I'm not sure to be honest. I think I've changed too many variables to reach a solid conclusion, and I'm no longer convinced that the issue was the depth/position of the temp sender. Im not sure how bad threads on a union would result in any real different readings, and based on my stove-top testing, I should be getting higher gauge values than the CR sender, not lower. So perhaps the issue was an air pocket, no idea.

I will still chase down the electrical testing in the gauge cluster that @45Dougal mentioned, but that will be for another day when I re-address dim lighting for the cluster at night.

If anyone has any other theories here, I would love to hear 'em... As it stands, I can't pinpoint any one reason why I was getting high readings.
Pretty awesome, start to finish write up…..I like using the hot oil thought….

very Cool Beans!
 

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