Voltage Regulator (ext.) / How it works (1 Viewer)

[bj40green]

Rudy great writeup on the external VR... have you found any replacements for the VR in solid state?

I had an electrical issue in 1995 and was beating my head for a week... replaced 2 new VR's and the alternator... and still no good ... i took it to an electrical guru back home... he rewired and replaced the oem VR with a solid state from an Ford

I wasnt too happy with that ... but... i paid him and went on my merry way.

18 years later it is still working flawlessly

was wondering if you had thoughts to do a writeup on replacement sold states

Hi Johnny,

About SS (Solid State = no moving parts) Voltage Regulators.......
There isn't much to tell about those "boxes". It's a sealed unit that works or not.
What I (with the help of the Mud members) can do is compile a list of successful replacements.

So here is my 1st question for you and MoCoNative;
You both speak about a "Ford" or "Ford style" SS regulator.
Does yours look like one of these?


They are known as "B-circuit" regulators and will fit Ford trucks.
Right now I'm collecting data from Transpo, Wagner and another brand to figure out the cross numbers between Toyota (Nippon Denso) and these brands.
Wish me luck!

@MoCoNative; Yes, the advantage of a SS VR is not only the absence of contact points but also the smooth charging regulating. Where the mechanical VR has only 3 positions (Full, Half and No Charge) the SS-VR regulates (and adjust) the charging process very smooth from Full to No Charge.

Rudi

 

[JohnnyC]

Mine is from what I remember ... A late 80's crown Vic/ ltd

The one I have is also a generic... Not a stamped motorcraft one ( thank goodness lol)
Looks like this one:

 

[bj40green]

Mine is from what I remember ... A late 80's crown Vic/ ltd

The one I have is also a generic... Not a stamped motorcraft one ( thank goodness lol)
Looks like this one:

Yes, that's an Airtex 1V1038 or Duralast VR749 Regulator or... so many aftermarket suppliers. Used on many USA cars.

AIRTEX-1V1038-Voltage-Regulator

The problem is that you really need the knowledge from the guy in repair shop to know which replacement works for/with your alternator.

Rudi

 

[MoCoNative]

Mine is similar to Johnnys, I recall searching for it once, it seemed to match something for the old Ford "boats." I looked at NAPA online, they had what looked like a direct replacement SS for my 73, 22 bucks or so.

My issue was more than bumpy charging, I was having discharge or lack of charge at random times.

Here is a slightly off topic question, my FJ60 seems to fluctuate quite a bit on the voltmeter. For instance, when I first start it sometimes it shows down like 8-10 volts, till I rev it, then it may surpass 12. Other times driving down the road it holds over 12 like normal, never wavers, then some days, even at 65 MPH it is barely over 12. This is with a load, headlights etc... I replaced the entire alternator years ago with a new NAPA Bosch unit, it has always had this issue where it doesn't show much over 12 at times, then the volt meter jumps up with a rev. Lately the showing low for hours at a time on the highway concerns me a bit.

However, the battery is probably 8 years old and it has yet to be dead or slow in the morning, so maybe it is just the flakiness of the factory guage, a picky SS VR, a questionable battery, or 238,000 miles on an original drivetrain. I replaced battery cable ends about 8 years ago, and cleaned some stuff up, but maybe I have some corroded grounds.

 

[bj40green]

Here is a slightly off topic question, my FJ60 seems to fluctuate quite a bit on the voltmeter. For instance, when I first start it sometimes it shows down like 8-10 volts, till I rev it, then it may surpass 12. Other times driving down the road it holds over 12 like normal, never wavers, then some days, even at 65 MPH it is barely over 12. This is with a load, headlights etc... I replaced the entire alternator years ago with a new NAPA Bosch unit, it has always had this issue where it doesn't show much over 12 at times, then the volt meter jumps up with a rev. Lately the showing low for hours at a time on the highway concerns me a bit.

However, the battery is probably 8 years old and it has yet to be dead or slow in the morning, so maybe it is just the flakiness of the factory guage, a picky SS VR, a questionable battery, or 238,000 miles on an original drivetrain. I replaced battery cable ends about 8 years ago, and cleaned some stuff up, but maybe I have some corroded grounds.

What you describe is normal behavior of the charge / discharge cycle.
I think that your battery is too old to get a full charge. Maybe a bad cell. That would explain why all your readings are 2Volts lower than normal.
With a fresh battery the voltage (after a 2 hours rest) after charging should be 12V or a bit above. When driving the voltage should be around 14.4V or less, but above 12V when under load like lights and heater.
Go to your favorite shop and ask for a battery test. They have a special tester for this purpose. Looks like this.




The test takes only 20 or 30 seconds and shows what's left of your battery capacity.


Rudi

 

[048642]

What could have caused this?



I have have owned this1980 HJ45 for about 6 years now and it has been a good runner, minus a few hiccups here and there along the way.

Of note, the ammeter has never worked, but battery remained charged up fine and it always turned over strong. The headlights showed a bit of dimming at idle, but nothing extreme.

I recently installed a autometer voltmeter gauge that I had lying around the shop for years, and I noticed that at idle it was reading around 11v and at cruising speed showed around 12.5v. I found these readings a bit low, but since everything was running and the battery was charging I just let it be.

A few weeks back I was getting ready for a trip up to Vermont and I was checking fluid levels, tightening things up etc. I saw that I had about 1.5 inches of play in the fan belt, so I slightly adjusted the alternator. By slightly I mean I loosened it and moved it about 1/2 on the adjuster, by hand to take out the play and tightened it up again.

I departed for my trip....in the dark and drove five hours up to Vermont. The Troopie behaved well, made a couple of fuel and food stops along the way, Troopie started up fine each time.

(The next day I had some intake manifold gasket problems...two of them blew out...or maybe sucked in...but I digress, that is not what I'm here to ask about).

The following day I was driving around the country road of Vermont and noticed that my voltmeter was reading around 14v...curious, could tightening my belt have caused this?? On the way home I found the the voltmeter was basically pegged at 19v!!! Again no other symptoms, so I turned on the lights and the radio, the heater blower was already on and the gauge was back around 14.5-15v...I drove on...not for long.

Suddenly the temperature gauge was pegged and I let out a few expletives and quickly pulled over the stop...before I could reach up and turn off the ignition the engine shut down. I popped the hood and confirmed with an infra red thermometer that the engine was actually around 180 F...which brought my heart rate down significantly. I tried to turn it over and nothing...dead...nada...not even a click. Just the faint smell of burning wires...fusible link burned up.

Back home I started to dig through the electrical system and I popped open the voltage regulator on the firewall...at first glance it looked as if it had never been opened...shining gleaming...cleanest part of the truck...but further observation revealed this situation! Could this have happened on it own? It seems physically impossible for the mechanism to do this without being forced into this configuration.

If it was done by the last owner, why would he have done this? And why did it work for 6 years and only fail now?

 

[bj40green]

Holy @#$%^&* ! I've never seen this in my life. I just checked my spare VR and came to the conclusion that it is impossible to move that arm in that position, even by a PO!
That arm is riveted to the black/blueish spring plate which is riveted to the vertical support so no way it can change position.
My spare VR


Your VR (I rotated your pic)


That arm is stuck in the "Full Charge" position so it keeps charging forever.

Can you post a pic from above so I can see that black spring plate as in mine?

Rudi

 

[048642]

Sorry for the delay, here is the picture a little closer to the angle you asked.

 

[048642]

Not sure why my images keep rotating back to original?

Here is the other side of the voltage regulator. I don't think the arm has the clearance when the cover is on to be moved into the position I found it. It could have only happened with the cover off, and not accidentally you really need to grip it to move it.

In the picture I sent you you can see I moved the arm back into the correct position, it is remarkably flexible. Not sure if I should continue to use this regulator or replace it with the one I have on the shelf.

Another question the regulator on my truck has an external capacitor on the side and the replacement does not have one. My wiring diagram does not show an external capacitor on it. Any concerns other than radio interference on not using one?

 

[WDT Siri]

Excellent write-up Rudi. Thank you very much

Kindly think about explaining on Internally Regulated Alternator too, if you have free time.

We all salute you for the great work.

 

[bj40green]

Not sure why my images keep rotating back to original?

Here is the other side of the voltage regulator. I don't think the arm has the clearance when the cover is on to be moved into the position I found it. It could have only happened with the cover off, and not accidentally you really need to grip it to move it.

In the picture I sent you you can see I moved the arm back into the correct position, it is remarkably flexible. Not sure if I should continue to use this regulator or replace it with the one I have on the shelf.

Another question the regulator on my truck has an external capacitor on the side and the replacement does not have one. My wiring diagram does not show an external capacitor on it. Any concerns other than radio interference on not using one?

If it was mine I would replaced that VR for a new one. I'm 100% sure that this one is out of spec. You don't want to risk another battery.
That capacitor (aka condenser) is from the early days when there was only AM reception. It is to suppress the "switching noise" from the VR. It's hooked up to the blue wire and ground.

Rudi

 

[bj40green]

Excellent write-up Rudi. Thank you very much

Kindly think about explaining on Internally Regulated Alternator too, if you have free time.

We all salute you for the great work.

Thanks for the kind words. Although I'm semi retired, I'm a little short on free time nowadays, but keep your fingers crossed!

Rudi

 

[bj40green]

I've started a new thread on Alternators with Internal Voltage Regulators: -► Voltage Regulator (internal) how works

Rudi

 

[PIPPI]

Hi Rudi,
I'm Paolo again....
I need your guru knowledge
I have a new, two years, alternator, a new VR, and today I have changed two batteries. Everything was good, i have made 180 km on higway and the voltage gauge was OK. I arrived in the garage turn off the engine and after 15 minutes I restart the engine to change place and the gauge skip to 32V!!! More exactly from 30 to 32, seeing the voltate gauge on the dashboard.
I run very slow and after 5 minutes all come back to normal value.
I have controlled with digital multimeter and I read from 26,5 at idle to 28,5 at 2000 rpm.
What the hell was happened? I don't known explane the cause of this thing. May be a bad ground but where? May be it is the gauge? But when I have had 32V on the gauge the dash was very brillant....
May be i have some problems on the wires near the block key (the sense wire is in this place?).
I dont'know what to do....
Thanks for any sudgestion and idea to try to solve this problem (I hate don't understand what happen under my bonnet..expecially cause I used my Toy in solitary lands).
Paolo "pippi"

 

[bj40green]

Ciao Pippi,

So you have a 6 wire, external Voltage Regulator. Right?
If not please post a picture of the back of the alternator and one of the VR.

There are 2 possibilities which can cause this problem.
1. The regulating contacts are stuck together. Maybe the came loose by the vibration of the engine.
2. A bad ground.

Open up the VR and check if the contacts are "clean". Not black or burned in. They must be shiny copper. You can clean them with a piece of very fine (500 or more) sanding paper pulling and pushing between the contacts.


Check the ground at the VR housing. The VR must be grounded with the 2 bolts to the firewall.
Check for corrosion at the bolts and washers.

Check the ground wire (white/black) in the 6 wire loom. The easiest way to do this is with a digital multi meter that has a buzzer or beeper function for circuit testing. It works the same as an ohm test but now you listen to the sound while you move, shake, bend, push and pull the white/black wire. It should beep when connected. If it stops beeping you've found the problem. The advantage is that you don't have to look at the meter display and can concentrate on what you're doing. Disconnect the plug at the alternator. Connect your meter between both ends of the white/black wire.

Another option is to use a test light. The one that looks like a screw driver with a light bulb in the handle and a ground wire with a crocodile clip on top of it.
Hook this light up in series with the white/black ground wire and switch the IGN key in the "on" position. The light should not come up or maybe a faint glow.
Move, shake, bend, push, pull the white/black wire with an eye on the test light. If it lits up you've found the problem.

Hope this helps you to get under way. Or buy a new VR to eliminate the problem VR or wiring.
If this happens in the middle of nowhere...... Just disconnect the VR and go back home. Your batteries should provide enough power for a couple of hours if you don't use your headlights.

Rudi

 

[PIPPI]

Hi Rudi!
First of all thanks for your help!
Yes I have an external VR.
In the next days I'do what you say.
My very problemi is that I ' preparing my HJ61 for my winter trip in Sahara so if I nave problemi a couple of hours are not enaugh.
I have a spare regulator but I nave fear that problems are on the car and not the VR but I'll do exactly what you sudgest!!
I'll informed you on the progress. ...
Thanks!!!!
Paolo "pippi"

 

[PIPPI]

Hi again Rudi!
In the doubt if I install a new ground wire from alternator to the white black connector of the VR is a bad idea? In this way I''ll be sure that one possible problem is eliminate.
I have forgot to say that at the VR I have added a supplementary ground to the frame and that from the plug of the VR there is a double connector with wire that I nave read it is a mouse filter for the radio. May be a source of the problem? If I eliminate this? I prefer have right voltage instead of good music while my Toy is burnig

 

[bj40green]

Hi Pippi,

In the doubt if I install a new ground wire from alternator to the white black connector of the VR is a bad idea? In this way I''ll be sure that one possible problem is eliminate.

That's a good idea! That way you eliminate a possible bad wire.
Make sure that the connectors on both sides are free of corrosion and making good contact.

I have forgot to say that at the VR I have added a supplementary ground to the frame and that from the plug of the VR there is a double connector with wire that I nave read it is a mouse filter for the radio. May be a source of the problem? If I eliminate this?

An extra ground wire from the VR to the frame is OK. Basically the VR is grounded to the firewall (the tub). That tub is mounted on the frame (chassis). That chassis is grounded by a ground wire/strip to the battery and there should be a ground wire from the frame to the engine. Lots of possible problem points.
To eliminate this, there is this white/black wire from the VR to the alternator.
It's called: potential difference elimination.

That noise filter is a capacitor which is good or defective. You can remove that capacitor because it was there for the "old style" AM radio's. You don't need that Capacitor for FM radio and/or CD player.

I prefer have right voltage instead of good music while my Toy is burnig

YES! I understand that.

Keep in mind that if you do more than one thing at the same time you'll never know what was causing the problem.

Hasta manaña

Rodolfo (my Spanish name)

 

[PIPPI]

Olà Rodolfo,
I’m not desappeared.
This morning I start the engine, 2000 rev and all OK: 28.4V
The frame of the regulator has continuity with the tub.
Now I have to verify the with/black wire and eliminate the noise filter.
Next days I’ll check wire and regulator and I’ll inform you about the results.
Paolo “pippi”

 

[PIPPI]

Better: the frame of the regulator has continuity with the firewall (this is what i have checked). I have verify the frame and the two bolts.
Paolo "pippi"