Use tie rod ends on the relay rod?

[elripster]

555 I believe, they are from Cruiser Outfitters.

The 555 brand of idler arm for the IFS minis was by far the worst on the market so maybe their relay rod joints aren't so hot either, who knows.

Frank

 

[Mace]

Just checking, mine (Kurts 555 brand) have lasted for 7 years now. Dunno why yours wear out quickly..

 

[elripster]

I don't know either but of the available rabbit holes into which I can jump I am going for the find a better replacement route.

Frank

 

[elripster]

I am trading emails with a few suppliers and am trying to get a right and left hand sample to test for fitment. If these work out I (or someone) would have to order 100 pieces minium or something like that to get these guys to supply the part. If it look like there is a reasonable demand I might fall on that sword and see how it goes.

Will update.

Frank

 

[elripster]

Relay rod ends with conventional ball joints do indeed exist. They appear only to be sold in Europe though. I have spoken with a few manufacturers and can have whatever tapered stud with the appropriate shaft thread as long as I drop a couple of grand and order a lot of them. I am not inclined to go into the tie rod end business so am looking at a way to purchase them from Europe reasonably. I found one place in the UK but after exchange rate it would have been $155 for both delivered.

Anyway, still looking and getting closer to a solution.

Frank

 

[BlueCruiser84]

Keep us updated. I would imagine you could buy a set of weld in threaded bungs and build your own Drag Link using whatever size tube and ends you want. Buy a new pitman arm and done. You could probably get all that done for under $155!

 

[elripster]

You could likely get the raw parts for less for sure. Your labor has to be worth something though and I was looking for a plug & play solution.

Rock Auto will deliver them FedEx International Priority for about $155. I have to believe they can be found for less. These models are made by a few manufacturers, I just need to find the right source which usually means a phone call.

Frank

 

[Mace]

I think you need to look at what is causing the drag link ends to wear out quickly.

Or, pay up for something that you think is going to help. And hope it does.

 

[elripster]

The only unique things about my truck are the 80 series PS pump and steering gear. Otherwise I have a 2.5-3" lift like everyone else.

Frank

 

[cruiserpilot]

I am replacing all 4 of my rod ends now. The relay rod and tie rod on the LH drivers side are shot. I have no idea of
the mileage on them so instead of rebuilding the relay rod I'm just buying new.
I just got back from a 5000 mile trip up the dempster hwy and N canol road. These are brutal roads. With a fair amount of
backroad crap along the way. I was heavily loaded with a RTT and tire carrier with 3 diesel cans on the bumper and rear
winch, etc. Anyhow, it really was hard on the steering, as highway speed maneuvering on these roads is more of a careful
'herding the truck in the right direction than steering it', and the wear on the front tires showed it.
I was a bit anxious when I saw this front tire wear, but I also had acquired about 200 lbs of frozen mud too.
So if you have a heavy loaded truck to the rear, and you're bouncing and steering the truck it will tear hell out of the rod ends.
That's just how it seems to be, and like the pics above, the grease doesn't get everywhere when you grease 'em, so
I don't expect these to last forever, but I will probably take them apart in a couple of years and see how the internals are working
out.
I see what you are saying, but if you replace this part with a hard part, expect possibly something else down the line to need
servicing. That part might cost a lot more than a relay rod end. My .02.

 

[elripster]

I highly doubt anything will be impacted by removing the spring joints from a wear standpoint. They are on no other Land Cruiser, or other on-road vehicles that I am aware. I believe they were a bad idea from their tractor line (the only place I have ever seen these used) that was promptly dropped.

I too have done a fair share of hard washboard back road pounding on my truck which is probably part of the early failure. One more reason to ditch these.

Frank

 

[elripster]

So it turns out you can buy the right side ball joint style drag link end from O'reilly auto and others made by Beck Arnley or Rare Parts. I am picking up one of these today to ensure fitment. These are very affordable. However, they do not carry the pitman arm end at all. The part I would like to get is the Monroe L13229. TriScan makes a part by the same number that also uses a ball joint. Lemforder does too. However, these are only sold in Europe.

I talked to Monroe directly and they referred me to a few dealers in the US but all the dealers claim these parts are discontinued. This sort round and round is pretty typical and usually requires connecting a human at Monroe directly to a human at a local reseller to remediate. RockAuto UK lists and will let me order the Monroe L13229. It is just that the end + shipping is about $109 so not cheap. If I ordered it right now, it will get here the day I leave for the T&S so for now I will hold off on that end. I did ask TriScan what it would they would require as far as quantities to ship this part to the US and have access to the US market. If they can keep it under say a grand to buy in I might bite the bullet and order a batch. If they move then maybe I will support it myself. I have owned an off road business before (San Diego Off Road Innovations) so I know what it takes, just not sure if I really want to get back into it again... at least at this time.

Otherwise, because this pitman side part is such an odd shape, a better approach would likely be to design a new rod which accommodates the Beck Arnley drag link ends with provisions for the steering damper attachment. I will keep chipping away at this one.

Frank

 

[elripster]

Oreilly's computer has what is probably an FJ40 (M17-ish shank) as far as the Beck Arnley part listed for the 60 so that didn't pan out. They tried ordering a different Beck Arnley part but it was an M23 shank tie rod end. I have an inquiry into Rare Parts to verify the part numbers and dimensions and if the check out I will order that.

Frank

 

[Elbert]

I don't think your truck would have any special wear or maintenance issues above and beyond the normal. Probably be well served to ensure you have the correct parts installed properly and make sure you have a good alignment. Its a very good idea to make sure any aftermarket parts of any type are the correct. If you are going to buy aftermarket then make sure you trust the source. Most people in the aftermarket world can't tell you if the part fits a FJ60 or 40 or whatever.... If you are having crazy wear issues or unknowns....it may be time to review your parts and install routine if nothing else makes sense because you have to ask the logical question.....why is the problem unique to your situation (as it may be according to some of your posting/notes).

Or its that crazy thing....you just forgot to look at or did not think about. Most of the crazy problems I've had are self induced or something I did not consider or I introduced in some manner....most.

 

[Mace]

Something else to think about. 80 series steering boxes are starting to be known for shearing the sector shaft. Something you rarely hear about on a 60 series even thought he boxes are very similar. Toyota's "horrible idea" could be a contributing factor.

Also, Early bronco's used this style joint as did Jeeps, 40 series, 70 series, land rovers, Scouts, even a model A. It's a very common style of steering joint, and was used heavily till the onset of Y style steering and Rack and Pinion setups.

The other Manu's of TRE's you are discussing are not the quality you want. I suspect you got a set of the Chinese 555's. Not nearly as good.

 

[elripster]

If 80 series boxes are shearing it is due to too much torque. These spring joints don't reduce torque. In fact, if they develop any slop they add shock loads to static loads and make things worse.

I got my last set from Cruiser Outfitters but do not know if these are Chinese or not. I think I might have mentioned that 555 made by far the worse idler arm for the IFS minis. It was weaker than the 2WD idlers from other companies. Thus, I would not say 555 is an absolute good brand.

Now those vehicles you quote are quite old. And today, when I look at 40 series parts, ball style are what is sold. Even among Toyotas, the 60 seems to be only one with the spring joints.

As for quality, why would you say German parts are bad? Lemforder is German. TriScan is British so who knows. Monroe should be as good as any other.

 

[Mace]

How is "Torque" killing the boxes? Spring Joints reduce shock loads. It's not the same as a Deadblow hammer...

Chances are, they are not the Chinese variant if you got them from Kurt. But I do know for a while he was having problems getting the Japanese versions. So who knows... For Cruisers, stock or the 555 brand are about the best out there. Judging the brand on another application is not really a apples to apples comparison.

Of course the vehicles are old, the standard steering design is old (as are these trucks). I am not aware of any modern vehicles that come with the same design steering. Most modern vehicles are rack and pinion or Y design steering (which have their own complications). I was merely pointing out that there are multiple vehicles out there that have used the spring loaded steering joints with significant longevity. It was not simply a mistake by Toyota purely on the 60 series.

OEM, and Japanese 555 steering joints have proven to be much better than just about any option available out there. I am not positive on the German joints ( I have not and do not know anyone that specifically has used them), but Monroe joints are not the same quality at all. Same with the OEM driveshaft U joints. Spicer can't compete with the strength of a stock toyota U joint. The steel is different and much stronger. Autozone U joints are garbage.

My 60 555 joints were added in 2010 (or about that timeframe) and have been solid since then (the previous joints were stock. I do not expect that they would fail any time soon. I am not easy on my truck. It has a 2.5" OME lift and sees a lot of rough roads (and daily driving). I still believe that you are running into a problem that is not due to the joints, but something ancillary.

If you believe that shock loading is your issue, then you may want to consider adding Hydro assist or a really good steering stabilizer. Reduce loads on the joints and they will last longer.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Fwiw all our TRE kits (past and present) have been Japanese 555, we've never had a set of the Chinese kits here.

We do have OE Toyota 60 Series tie rod ends available too... Same part number as the single ends but with a "OEM" on the endmight be worth a shot? Cruiser Outfitters

I'd be really curious what is causing the premature wear on just your rig? We have customers running these with 35's on high mileage and abused trucks. They certainly get sloppy over time and can be adjusted but nothing like your wear?

 

[elripster]

The worm gear turns the sector shaft creating torque to steer the truck. I have not seen a sheared sector shaft but am guessing it is twisting off?

Actually when it comes to shock loads those de-spring a spring. They actually realign the grain structure. Now this never happens in most applications since there is too much mass, damping, etc... but in these little joints it just might be possible. If the spring binds, which it does here, it is much more likely.

I thought about the steering shock but that would have to mount to the tie rod to really damp out shock shock loads. It protects the steering box and pitman side joint but none of the others.

Maybe I just don't care for slop and noise I get out of them. They still steer the truck but having someone turn the wheel while I observe the joints it is amazing how much they deflect. I can hear them knocking when the truck hits bumps. I have gone through hub rebuilds, new tie rod ends, going after these harsh noises, etc... only to finally sit and watch/listen to these joints from outside the truck to observe the deflection and "cracking" noise they make when they flex.

I have 33X10.5's on a similar lift to everyone else so I don't think that is the issue. I can tell you the 80 series pump gives one more power assist than does the 60 series pump and the gear likely multiplies that force since it looks from the outside like the 80 series power piston is larger. As mentioned I have an 80 series box in my truck. If these are the causes, and it is certainly plausible, I would rather strengthen the rod ends to address.



Frank

 

[lcwizard]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'll bet the failures are mostly if not all at the pitman arm.

The barrel style are strong but they have limited articulation applied as they are at the pitman. A lifted truck with a lot of droop will bind the top rod end. The lower end is applied so it will never see bind. The GM 1 non has the advantage at the pitman because it will handle about 20 degrees
more articulation than the 60 end. With shorter relays like in a 40 series with saginaw and a 4" lift and 10" travel shocks the typical "kit" uses a CJ5/7 rod end at the pitman. It has as similar travel range as the 60 series units. You can hang the axles at full droop at the rod end at the pitman
will be bound so hard you can't move it. It's looks like it's going to pop right out of the socket. Every 4" lift I do on a 40 gets a gm 1 ton rod at the pitman and a 60 series barrel style down low. The two ends have similar diameter so the material to build the rod can be the same. The 60 uses
a 21mm x 1.5 which requires a 19.5mm bore and the gm uses 7/8-18 and a 21mm bore. 1 1/4" x .250 wall DOM works fine leaving not less than a .20 wall thickness after tapping.