Underbody Treatment Question

[wjkimmerle]

I recently purchased a 1996 European HDJ80, manual triple locked.

I live in the northeast and am paranoid about rust.

The vehicle has a tacky, tar-like under treatment in place. It seems similar to what I read about with Ziebart under coatings, but I spoke to a vendor and they said their product wouldn’t be tacky.

Is anyone familiar with applications like this, and would you know if they are well functioning, or should be fully removed and a new fluid film treatment applied? My mechanic isn’t even sure how he would remove it, I tried and didn’t have any luck either.

I’m just fearful because some reviews of Ziebart show incredible corrosion beneath the coating that shows once the steel is completely compromised

(Just had knuckles and hubs redone, images are from prior)

Thank you

 

[Mag71k5]

Id start removing the larger areas with wire wheels, you can get some that go in drills, and then you have wire wheel/flapper disks for an angle grinder.

What you cant reach with those, I'd test with a solvent and scraper, Gasoline is great, but of course dont set yourself or the cruiser on fire.

Just dont be surprised when you start peeling back the onion, you might find rust hidden underneath. Ive seen some absolute rust buckets out of france.

Good luck!

 

[wjkimmerle]

Id start removing the larger areas with wire wheels, you can get some that go in drills, and then you have wire wheel/flapper disks for an angle grinder.

What you cant reach with those, I'd test with a solvent and scraper, Gasoline is great, but of course dont set yourself or the cruiser on fire.

Just dont be surprised when you start peeling back the onion, you might find rust hidden underneath. Ive seen some absolute rust buckets out of france.

Good luck!

Thank you! Will give it a shot, that’s what I’m fearing (saw a bit of it already on a radiator support).

Thank you again

 

[Irish Reiver]

Back in the day we used a product called Waxoil (maybe waxoyl) which stayed tacky. People would drive to a dusty road, spray this stuf then drive up and the dust road. It was great as rust preventative as I recall. In ireland we never saw many days where salt was put down but no shortages of miserable wet days so the stuff had to work well.

 

[Batameez]

This might be Waxoyl as stated above; a popular product in Europe. I'd recommend going to Garden State Undercoating to see what he says since their business is scraping failing coatings off and recoating all day. I notice we are neighbors, feel free to PM if you need any specific recommendations around here.

 

[FJ80HI]

It looks like what you are seeing at the ends of the axels and other areas is leaked oil and grease No major leaks and I have had lc look like this with no major issues. Just kept an eye on lube levels. They may have also sprayed some type of undercoating. My first fj40 I bought used in Maryland 1982 had zebart. The zebart was dry and cracked stuff no good as it held water. Be a huge job to remove that under coating. Maybe have someone steam clean the loose and not worry about the rest. Rust needs water and air so if that material prevents that from entering no rust. Leaked oil and leaked grease do a good job of preventing rust. I have a used range rover 2007 my sister gave me. She drove it in Boston and never cleaned the bottom. Underside was rust bucket. I wire brushed with hand brush just to remove loose and painted rust oleum rusty metal primer with flat black top coat all rattle cans from Lowe’s and has held up well for 6 years. Btw that underside looks excellent. Also others spray Fluid Film once each fall to prevent salt corrosion on underside. I am in Hawaii so see no salted roads. Only have sea spray a lot of rain and very high humidity with high salt content

 

[wjkimmerle]

This might be Waxoyl as stated above; a popular product in Europe. I'd recommend going to Garden State Undercoating to see what he says since their business is scraping failing coatings off and recoating all day. I notice we are neighbors, feel free to PM if you need any specific recommendations around here.

This is awesome information, thank you! I found a guy in Staten who does it but he was booked the entire season, these guys are right in Saddle Brook that's even easier. It's also really hard to find a mechanic willing to work on it - Westside Tire & Auto in Jersey City has been great (prior to that I had called dozens of places that said no thanks). I can handle a lot but there's no way I have time to self adjust valves, etc.

Thank you again!

 

[wjkimmerle]

It looks like what you are seeing at the ends of the axels and other areas is leaked oil and grease No major leaks and I have had lc look like this with no major issues. Just kept an eye on lube levels. They may have also sprayed some type of undercoating. My first fj40 I bought used in Maryland 1982 had zebart. The zebart was dry and cracked stuff no good as it held water. Be a huge job to remove that under coating. Maybe have someone steam clean the loose and not worry about the rest. Rust needs water and air so if that material prevents that from entering no rust. Leaked oil and leaked grease do a good job of preventing rust. I have a used range rover 2007 my sister gave me. She drove it in Boston and never cleaned the bottom. Underside was rust bucket. I wire brushed and painted rust oleum rusty metal primer with flat black top coat all rattle cans from Lowe’s and has held up well for 6 years. Btw that underside looks excellent. Also others spray Fluid Film once each fall to prevent salt corrosion on underside.

Yes knuckles and axle hubs were a bit of a mess, ordered all the parts through Slee and Cruiserparts.net, just had the job done.

Thank you for the advice, I'm going to clean it to that level and see where it stands. I found a couple obvious spots that had rusted, cleaned them up and finished with POR-15.

 

[FJ80HI]

Yes knuckles and axle hubs were a bit of a mess, ordered all the parts through Slee and Cruiserparts.net, just had the job done.

Thank you for the advice, I'm going to clean it to that level and see where it stands. I found a couple obvious spots that had rusted, cleaned them up and finished with POR-15.

Sounds like a good plan. You could do more damage than good trying to remove what is there. Just let in wear away and then fix any small areas. I use the rustoleum flat black top coat prime and hit the rust. If I spray on grease or oil no harm done

 

[Kernal]

I would not remove it in the dead of winter, lots more days of salted roads to go before springtime. At least wait until summer and you have a plan in place to then paint and/or replace it with something else if you really want to see what's underneath. Just as important is protecting inside the body cavities, bottom inside lip of doors, inside quarter panels, hatch, lift gate, inside door cavities, hood, rocker panels, etc,etc. There are many products but first check inside some body cavities to see what they look like then make a plan.

Some people have had their undercarriage dry ice blasted.

FWIW

 

[jonheld]

^^^^^^^^this
Leave it alone until the weather breaks. There's a few places in Jersey that do dry ice blasting, but it's not cheap.
There's a guy in Summit that does a complete Fluid Film treatment in a garage with a lift, or you can do it yourself like I do every October in my driveway.

Preferred vendors that are NOT frequent fliers on the bad sellers list.

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[Batameez]

If you have the privilege of the sliding rear quarter windows, I recommend you peel the seals back and inject some Surface Shield in there before this horrid climate turns that aluminum frame into a powdery crumbling cookie-like substance. It can get so bad that your windows won't be able to close from the expansion. Also pop off the cargo area side plastic and look for water accumulation in the body. The belt moulding trim and those lovely sliding windows love to leak and create a puddle there.

 

[FJ80HI]

One suggestion to make life easier when doing future maintenance. Get a can of waterproof bearing grease at auto parts store. When doing maintenance or repair when reassembling gresse every nut and bolt. Never need to worry about rust frozen fasteners. I grease anything that moves against something else

 

[wjkimmerle]

If you have the privilege of the sliding rear quarter windows, I recommend you peel the seals back and inject some Surface Shield in there before this horrid climate turns that aluminum frame into a powdery crumbling cookie-like substance. It can get so bad that your windows won't be able to close from the expansion. Also pop off the cargo area side plastic and look for water accumulation in the body. The belt moulding trim and those lovely sliding windows love to leak and create a puddle there.

The is awesome advice. I had already bought replacement seals and runners, the windows are stiff.

In replacing the door window motors and runners, I discovered what I thought was rust everywhere. When I pulled back the plastic liners on the door panels, it turned out to be a red dirt (southern European?) mixed with lubricants over decades, caked onto everything. Not a lick of rust inside the doors, but red everywhere with this dirt grime. I’m sure I’ll find the same in the rear panels, need to tackle immediately.

Thank you!

 

[fjbj40]

Take it somewhere, get it oil sprayed. Run it the winter then deal with it in the spring.

 

[FJ80HI]

The is awesome advice. I had already bought replacement seals and runners, the windows are stiff.

In replacing the door window motors and runners, I discovered what I thought was rust everywhere. When I pulled back the plastic liners on the door panels, it turned out to be a red dirt (southern European?) mixed with lubricants over decades, caked onto everything. Not a lick of rust inside the doors, but red everywhere with this dirt grime. I’m sure I’ll find the same in the rear panels, need to tackle immediately.

Thank you!

Best way to clean that is petroleum based brake cleaner in spray can. Something like CRC brand

 

[Kernal]

Posted previously in other threads but FWIW: I would not use brake cleaner inside a body cavity, it can damage/remove any paint/primer/coatings and weaken the factory adhesive foam that is attached between the door intrusion/crash beams with the outer door skin. Once you have the door panels and vapor barriers removed/opened, disconnect the battery and wash out the cavity using regular car wash soap. You can pull the harneses out a bit so you don't drown them but they will dry in warm weather. There are drain holes at the bottom inside of the doors to let the water out. Then let the vehicle sit in the sun with the doors open. Once clean and dry you can use your spray paint/primer if you see any surface rust, replace the adhesive foam (go over it) with butyl rubber between the door skin and intrusion/crash beam, apply sound dampening sheets (~%50) if you want.

Could also service (clean/grease) the window regulator while you're in there. Check the door limiter is functioning, clean and grease (rubber safe).

Last thing is to spray 3M cavity wax inside the door cavities (or other similar product).
3M has a kit with three lengths of spray wands, ~1',2', 3' to allow you to get deep inside cavities that you can't get to directly.

Be sure to reseal the vapor (water) barrier, very important and often gets missed IME.

You can do the same to the quarter panel cavities, remove a plug on the underside then wash out with water and car wash soap.

The rear quarter panels have (or at least originally had) very small weep holes. If the vehicle has been "undercoated" those may have been sealed shut.
One trick I've used is to pour 91% rubbing alcohol into the quarter panel cavity ie: after removing the cargo area panels, and washing them out. Then get under the vehicle to look for where it's dripping out, then use small zip ties to ensure the tiny weep holes are not plugged. Reason for the rubbing alcohol is that it will combine with any water left over and help it evaporate (then apply primer/paint/cavity wax).

Don't forget the wheel well arches and dog leg areas when working from the cargo area, There is a rubber plug on the very rear bottom of the rocker panels
and that IMO/IME appear to be it's own separate section, so it's important to spray Cavity wax forward and down from the wheel hump areas. That's where the 3' long spray wand comes in handy. You can spray cavity wax up through that small rubber plug you removed also.

More trivia: IME the tail lamp "pockets" where the taillamp assemblies sit are prone to leaking ie: the factory applied a line of butyl rubber sealant on the backside lip of those pockets to seal them to the body (opening into the quarter panel cavity) but over time the butyl rubber does not seal as well as it used to. This allows road dust and water into the quarter panel cavities. The fix is to remove the tail lamps, tail lamp pockets, then reseal the pocket with butyl rubber tape/rope (1/8"-3/16"). All that can be done while washing out the cavities.

Ditto: spray cavity wax into the rocker panels, hatch, tailgate, hood structure, etc, etc but always check/clear any drain slits.

One job becomes 37.

 

[wjkimmerle]

Posted previously in other threads but FWIW: I would not use brake cleaner inside a body cavity, it can damage/remove any paint/primer/coatings and weaken the factory adhesive foam that is attached between the door intrusion/crash beams with the outer door skin. Once you have the door panels and vapor barriers removed/opened, disconnect the battery and wash out the cavity using regular car wash soap. You can pull the harneses out a bit so you don't drown them but they will dry in warm weather. There are drain holes at the bottom inside of the doors to let the water out. Then let the vehicle sit in the sun with the doors open. Once clean and dry you can use your spray paint/primer if you see any surface rust, replace the adhesive foam (go over it) with butyl rubber between the door skin and intrusion/crash beam, apply sound dampening sheets (~%50) if you want.

Could also service (clean/grease) the window regulator while you're in there. Check the door limiter is functioning, clean and grease (rubber safe).

Last thing is to spray 3M cavity wax inside the door cavities (or other similar product).
3M has a kit with three lengths of spray wands, ~1',2', 3' to allow you to get deep inside cavities that you can't get to directly.

Be sure to reseal the vapor (water) barrier, very important and often gets missed IME.

You can do the same to the quarter panel cavities, remove a plug on the underside then wash out with water and car wash soap.

The rear quarter panels have (or at least originally had) very small weep holes. If the vehicle has been "undercoated" those may have been sealed shut.
One trick I've used is to pour 91% rubbing alcohol into the quarter panel cavity ie: after removing the cargo area panels, and washing them out. Then get under the vehicle to look for where it's dripping out, then use small zip ties to ensure the tiny weep holes are not plugged. Reason for the rubbing alcohol is that it will combine with any water left over and help it evaporate. FWIW.

Don't forget the wheel well arches and dog leg areas when working from the cargo area, There is a rubber plug on the very rear bottom of the rocker panels
and that IMO/IME appear to be it's own separate section, so it's important to spray Cavity wax forward and down from the wheel hump areas. That's where the 3' long spray wand comes in handy. You can spray cavity wax up through that small rubber plug you removed also.

More trivia: IME the tail lamp "pockets" where the taillamp assemblies sit are prone to leaking ie: the factory applied a line of butyl rubber sealant on the backside lip of those pockets to seal them to the body (opening into the quarter panel cavity) but over time the butyl rubber does not seal as well as it used to. This allows a road dust and water into the quarter panel cavities. The fix is to remove the tail lamps, tail lamp pockets, then reseal the pocker with butyl rubber tape/rope.(1/8"-3/16"). All that can be done while washing out the cavities.

Ditto: spray cavity wax into the rocker panels, hatch, tailgate, hood structure, etc, etc but always check/clear any drain slits.

One job becomes 37.

This is awesome advice. I just went through the process in two doors, cleaned and regreased window regulators, replaced motors, removed old plastic weatherproofing and fabricated anew, sealed with butyl tape.

I fought the material inside the doors a good amount before stopping myself - I had already cleaned the weep holes / drain slits at the base of the door and then liberally applied silicon to any lower areas on the inside faces.

The reason I stopped was that the lack of rust said to me that the (even dirt-laden) grease covering everything may have acted as a protectant over many years.

Is anything in that series wrong or likely to cause unintended damage? (Genuine question).

Wheel wells and lighting cavities are my biggest fear in terms of future corrosion, that and all your comments and suggestions are super appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[wjkimmerle]

I didn’t take any pictures of the door cavities, but the window regulator shows the grime I am talking about (I removed it from the regulators and regreased). It’s a thick red grease, and I mistook it for rust everywhere, but where I removed it everything beneath was clean painted metal after cleaning only with simple green and similar degreasers.

 

[Batameez]

Probably some North African dirt from Tunisia or Morocco. The Euro spec 80s and other SUVs of that era tend to have lived different lives than their US counterparts that drove to an office and back home. The people who bought them new actually used them.

@Kernal would you happen to know where those weep holes are? I had some new sheetmetal welded in that area and it was custom fabrication so I may need to drill a hole.