turbo manifold project

[Dusty]

like Mike said the bracket used by the ypipe is perfect for for support. I'm using mine

sounds like this stainless manifold is built to go the distance. this is one area where I worry about my cast job as I have read that a life expectancy of 5 years is average for a mild steel weld el manifold. mine has multiple welded joints and this can only add to the stress. this stainless job looks immortal. Im sure you will have much more money into this manifold than the ebay one you could have kept. But I have yet to see Rick cut any corners and this build is one more testament

You could have taken a cheaper road than a gt35. Huge power potential. I believe this is the same turbo Christo has spoken of in the past with reference to the AVO kit.

 

[landtank]

Using the tranny brace for support has been one of my targets for a while.

Safari and AVO use turbos with internal waste gates. While this simplifies the down pipe and integration into the exhaust system it does get real crowded because of the added width of the turbo housing.

This is the major reason I went with an external waste gate. Another reason was that other cheaper turbos could be used on this manifold.

 

[GreatLakesWaterjet]

Rick, lookin' good!

 

[landtank]

thanks for all the kind words.

I had an early day today so off came the stock manifolds and on went the turbo one. I've got everything marked out and if I can I'll be dropping it off for completion tomorrow.

Surprisingly my options for turbo placement was extremely limited especially having it down under. In that position there was only 1 spot, so I went with that as my choice.

 

[landtank]

I just got back from my machinist and he has everything now to complete the build. He's thinking sometime early next week for the finished product. Sorry I didn't get any pictures but I will next week.

 

[concretejungle]

Rick, this is looking good. Very good work from your crew! I am watching all these turbo builds with keen interest hoping that some day i will be able to afford to follow in the footsteps.

 

[Bruneti]

Rick, looking very good. Can't wait to see pics next week.

Did your GT35r come with a restrictor for the oil feed? If not, you will need one to prevent smoking. This is a common problem for people using this particular turbo. I think the larger GT series turbos shipped with a restrictor, but the 35r did not. This may have changed now due to some of the early problems people had with it.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/faqs.html#t16

 

[landtank]

Rick, looking very good. Can't wait to see pics next week.

Did your GT35r come with a restrictor for the oil feed? If not, you will need one to prevent smoking. This is a common problem for people using this particular turbo. I think the larger GT series turbos shipped with a restrictor, but the 35r did not. This may have changed now due to some of the early problems people had with it.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/faqs.html#t16

Thanks for the tip, if I knew what a restrictor looked like I might be able to answer the question to whether or not it came with one. I'll have to check into it.

 

[Bruneti]

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/m...tp&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-021&Category_Code=BCS

Oil inlet fitting for GT28/30/35R with built-in restrictor

Oil inlet fitting for GT Ball Bearing Turbos for GT28R/GT28RS/GT30R/GT35R with built-in oil restrictor (of .035" hole size). Custom machined part. Output is -4 AN male flare. use with any of our -4 feed line assemblies.

 

[Dusty]

the restrictor point is a good one. I have used 2 diff restrictors on mine. when my turbo first started smoking I was hoping the problem was too much oil so I went with a smaller restriction but the bearings were coked and the shaft was loose. after I put in the new bearings I went back to the bigger hole and its not smoking. I dont know what to think on this one. But I do know that most turbos need only a fraction of the oil pressure available to operate properly.

 

[akarilo]

That is going to be very nice! It's obvious that you are very detail oriented.

 

[gnx7]

Looks good so far. Can't wait to see the finished manifold.

 

[landtank]

As an update:

The first manifold ended up not fitting the truck. This is basically do to shrinkage from being welded. To get the quality welds needed the heat generated was enough to have a total shrink factor of 7%.

That's right, 7%. So in the end the engine flange was 3/16" shorter than before welding. Because the bolt holes for the T4 and Tial flanges were drilled and tapped pre assembly nothing would screw in the holes because they had shrunk also.

From this experience I think this is evidence of why so many home made manifolds fail.

If the manifold still fits the head after welding you probably have poor penetration. And while the manifold didn't shrink during manufacturing it probably will during running. Cycling the manifold from ambient up to 1700*+ and back constantly over time will most likely cause the same shrink issue I had and pull apart the weak welds.

I have a meeting with my guys at the end of this week to discuss this further. I'm actually glad all of this has come to light before I bolted everything to the engine. However the initial news did kind of suck.

Right now the actual install of the system won't be until next year. I need to work out the manifold details first and with the coming of winter and the truck needing to be put into service full time for business I'm holding off until spring.

I'll update with success or failure when I get it.

 

[concretejungle]

Rick, they may be doing this now, but.... do they have the manifold bolted to a jig while they weld it? Just thinking that maybe if it's bolted up to a jig simulating the head of the fz, then perhaps that would help hold it's shape.

 

[Sc0-]

From dealing with a few custom turbo headers on rotary engines, the flange is bolted to an actual head or fixture during the welding. (Sometimes these fixtures mimic the engine compartment by having extensions setting the limits so custom tubes don't end up interfering with something when it is bolted to the engine. When welding you also preheat the parts to minimize distortion and shrinkage. (stainless is $$$ when it comes to seamless and mandrel bends) If things aren't too warped afterwards a die grinder and TIG then come out for mods. (flange on a 13b is much smaller than a 1fz)

I like the internal wastegated turbo's due to the simpler exhaust routing, and in most cases it saves weight and space. Where is the external wastegate plumbed in at on this manifold?

As for the ECM, I would think their would be many options due to the 2jz bolt-on crowd? Who had that 1000hp Toyota crown with the turbo 1fz? Then again the aftermarket has "MegaSquirt" ECU's and direct spark ignitions but it's not for the faint hearted and even I cringe when thinking about doing a TLC.

 

[landtank]

Yes the flange was clamped in place. I personally think controlling the shrinkage is the wrong approach. If it doesn't happen during welding it will most likely happen afterwards during operation. We need to compensate for the shrinkage so the final part is the correct size. From what I'm told the bar stock is cold rolled and the biggest offender.

We've already laid out a plan to do so during manufacturing and am doing some testing to confirm that it will work.

As far as price goes, just the elbows, Tees and laser cut flanges were more than $400.00.

 

[fj80psi]

Rick- I'm at a loss for words.... You'll get it right.

 

[Dusty]

Bummer friend

I didn't tack my manifold together in one completion like yours was done. I completely welded each weld el to the manifold flange and to oneanother ONE AT A TIME. as suggested by corky bell. helps to minimize tension and expansion because you can trim the weld els to fit as you go.

Dont weld the t4 flange to the log untill the log is all welded up. Tap the flange very last or just drill your holes all the way through and use a bolt with a nut. the exhaust studs and nuts work great

The original bolt holes I made in the manifold were too small at first as planned. Only after the manifold was finished did I enlargen the holes in the direction needed after checking the fit to the head. Dont cut the flange untill the end and dont do the final enlargement/fit of the bolt holes till the flange is cut. do this last

the flange starts with round holes that are too small to fit the larger ovals of the head exhaust ports. after the log is welded up you just put the gasket on the flange and match port the enlarging flange holes as needed

Rick you are just in a state of depression right now. you know all this stuff

YOUR FABRICATION CREW SCREWED UP. 3/16"!!! no excuse for that. tell them to start over and slow down. Log manifolds are built all the time by fabricators. the issue is will they hold up or not. the issue is never will they fit when completed

of course I say all this and my cracked manifold is sitting on the floor of my shop mocking me.

 

[landtank]

Bummer friend

I didn't tack my manifold together in one completion like yours was done. I completely welded each weld el to the manifold flange and to oneanother ONE AT A TIME. as suggested by corky bell. helps to minimize tension and expansion because you can trim the weld els to fit as you go.

Dont weld the t4 flange to the log untill the log is all welded up. Tap the flange very last or just drill your holes all the way through and use a bolt with a nut. the exhaust studs and nuts work great

The original bolt holes I made in the manifold were too small at first as planned. Only after the manifold was finished did I enlargen the holes in the direction needed after checking the fit to the head. Dont cut the flange untill the end and dont do the final enlargement/fit of the bolt holes till the flange is cut. do this last

the flange starts with round holes that are too small to fit the larger ovals of the head exhaust ports. after the log is welded up you just put the gasket on the flange and match port the enlarging flange holes as needed

Rick you are just in a state of depression right now. you know all this stuff

YOUR FABRICATION CREW SCREWED UP. 3/16"!!! no excuse for that. tell them to start over and slow down. Log manifolds are built all the time by fabricators. the issue is will they hold up or not. the issue is never will they fit when completed

of course I say all this and my cracked manifold is sitting on the floor of my shop mocking me.

Pretty much figured all that stuff out. The manifold needs to be built in sections and then each section needs to be trimmed to fit so as to compensate for any shrinkage from the first weld. To fix this manifold it's really quite simple. The section with the T4 needs to be rebuild separately and then the rest welded on to it. It might not make sense but you need to understand how the thing is broken up. We are now working with a 4 section unit. First section is cylinder 1, 2nd section is cylinders 2+3, 3rd section is 4+5 and the 4th section is cylinder 6. Both the T4 and Tial flange is located in section 3. So building that section with a little stretch in both directions will solve 3/4s of the issue and then we need to adapt cylinder one to the rest.

I had a 5 hour ride this morning to my first call and had time to get some perspective on the job. Just got to roll with it right now.

 

[Dusty]

could it be salvaged?
do 2 of the 3 sections line up?

if the issue was too long a manifold the fix would be simpler

could you just keep the 2 outermost sections and redoo the center?

dont give up on the manifold yet. sit down with your crew and brainstorm.

if you are giving up I want it